Catastrophic Engine Failure

[mbaapk]

I have to say this does reek of a money shift like someone noted. We’ll never know but could have even happened at port.

Replacing the engine will indeed be like new, its a stock swap and nuts, bolts and connection points don’t change. Id take the swap and milk em for as much as I could (in all fairness of course) on the side.

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[optronix]

Cool your jets. What's with the rage?

And this aversion to the lemon law? It's simple: it either does the job or it doesn't. It's certainly worth a shot.

I never said he should ditch the car. The truth is, major fixes like engine or transmission swaps will never bring the car back to its original glory. Warranties, including powertrain warranties, are just sales tactics to make you buy the car and offer a false sense of security. That's why some of the most unreliable cars, like Hyundais, have had the best powertrain warranties for years.

Anyway, they’re not promising a flawless engine swap; they're just there to get the engine replaced and the car moving. Whether it actually runs well afterward is anyone's guess. After years of seeing dealerships handle these swaps, I can tell you they rarely end up satisfactory. You're just too trusting of dealerships.

Come on now, we're just having a discussion. Why is it almost every time someone gets strongly challenged on a message board they think they're being attacked? Isn't that like, why we're here, for heated discussion? Not sure where you get rage from, I just think you're way off base. If strongly disagreeing is rage, then sure. I'm raging. ?‍

And you still are off-base. Tragically. You don't really even have any evidence to speak of, either. So far you're going off pure opinion; your misguided assumption that for some reason a car can't work right ever again if the engine is replaced. Just think for a second on that; it should sound pretty ludicrous saying it loud. It does to me, at least.

Anyway, I guess I'm not going to convince you one way or the other because your mind is clearly made up, but yes I would more or less expect the car to be virtually flawless, and there's no reason other than your misunderstanding that implies it wouldn't be. I just see no reason to think that when OP got the car back anyone would ever be able to tell the work was done aside from the service history. Sure there's room for error but again- I ask you to prove it! Show some real data that validates your claim that it "will never bring the car back to its original glory". Even something along the lines of "percentage of cars with comprehensive engine work done and follow-up service visits" will do. That seems like something that could be out there, if you cared to look for it. I just ask you go find it and actually prove me wrong. Otherwise it's just a rando on a message board making wild claims.

That's not an attack, it's the truth.

I think the main misunderstanding here is “replace”. Of course they’re not going to just give him a new car. Replace to me means buyback.

At that point, let the buyer decide if he/she wants to search for another Type R or move to a different platform.

Now, on to: “What incentive does a dealer have to make an exception for a Type R?”
Are you serious? How about the $5000+ they pocketed for additional markup, or the 20x markup on unwanted companion accessories that the buyer was forced to take if he buys one?

One place you and I agree is that the specialness of these cars is overhyped, but these dealerships have skin in the game, too. It is expensive rattly car that dealerships are making a lot of profit on.

If 1 in 5,000 Hondas have infant engine fatality within a week of delivery and less than 300 miles, Honda should pay their cost and the dealership should pay for profit + ADM and buy it back.

It’s completely cool if you disagree. I’m just stating that the OP is holding more cards than he thinks. This is horrible press, and I would fight like hell to get it resolved in his shoes.

I do disagree. Is that ok? Please don't be like the other guy and think I'm mad; we're allowed to talk about this stuff on here, right? Without hurt feelings hopefully?

And I still think OP should fight like hell, because I'm certainly not saying it couldn't happen. And to me, buyback vs replace is the same thing. And honestly it's almost certainly AHMC that would be doing the buyback, not the dealer. So there's a layer of abstraction here that I think most of us probably don't even understand, but let's not let that stop a good debate, right?

I still think there's a misunderstanding, especially when it comes to the perceived bargaining posture of the OP. Honda does not give a shit about the press from one engine failure. I think this because even the target audience, people posting in this thread, don't even care. At least not enough to be put off the platform. Maybe a little more than casually interested, but not "I gotta get out while I still can" concerned, right? For one engine failure? Are you really that worried? I'm not. Honda isn't either.

And we'll go back to this "dealerships are making a lot of profits".. you specifically mention ADM and accessories. At what point of the ownership life cycle do these things occur? So why would dealers care about keeping a customer happy when they've already got their ADM and accessories profits?

We can at least all agree that most dealers are pretty short sighted, right? I could almost see this if it were a Porsche... Porsche customers can indeed be whales, because there's always a bigger, badder P car on the horizon, or they go through them rapidly because wealth or whatever... but come on, there's another thread I just commented on yesterday about oil snobs that won't put anything less than AMSOIL or Royal Purple or whatever in their cars; you think Type R owners are prolific lifetime service customers? And with the ADM they likely paid, you think they'll be back to that same dealer when the next gen hybrid Type R comes along, also probably asking ADM?

Just a clear misalignment about what leverage you think OP has in this situation. He... doesn't have much at all from where I'm standing.

 

[Noize]

I do disagree. Is that ok? Please don't be like the other guy and think I'm mad; we're allowed to talk about this stuff on here, right? Without hurt feelings hopefully?

For sure!

And I still think OP should fight like hell, because I'm certainly not saying it couldn't happen. And to me, buyback vs replace is the same thing. And honestly it's almost certainly AHMC that would be doing the buyback, not the dealer. So there's a layer of abstraction here that I think most of us probably don't even understand, but let's not let that stop a good debate, right?

I still think there's a misunderstanding, especially when it comes to the perceived bargaining posture of the OP. Honda does not give a shit about the press from one engine failure. I think this because even the target audience, people posting in this thread, don't even care. At least not enough to be put off the platform.

Now here, I definitely agree. Sometimes we are just the sum of our experiences.
I have had several Hondas, VWs, and Mitsubishis over the years. Honda has been super tough to deal with in-warranty for my family. Prelude shift forks, faulty A/C compressors, Si paint. Their initial stance is deny/deny/deny. Only after a TSB came out, would they be compelled to act.

A local Golf R guy money shifted his manual R, the dealer pulled the data proving the money shift, and corporate STILL paid for the repair. Likely, because VW still has to work on their public image from Dieselgate. I moderate a Mk8 group, and so many people get good help from VW- fair buyback offers, payout offers, etc when something goes amiss. Mitsu, Subaru, and BMW, same thing. They took pretty good care of me when warranty issues arose.

Maybe a little more than casually interested, but not "I gotta get out while I still can" concerned, right? For one engine failure? Are you really that worried? I'm not. Honda isn't either.

I'm not worried about mine either. It is stock, likes to rattle interior panels, and other than it making a weird noise on startup once, has been reliable in the time I've owned it.

And we'll go back to this "dealerships are making a lot of profits".. you specifically mention ADM and accessories. At what point of the ownership life cycle do these things occur? So why would dealers care about keeping a customer happy when they've already got their ADM and accessories profits?

We can at least all agree that most dealers are pretty short sighted, right? I could almost see this if it were a Porsche... Porsche customers can indeed be whales, because there's always a bigger, badder P car on the horizon, or they go through them rapidly because wealth or whatever... but come on, there's another thread I just commented on yesterday about oil snobs that won't put anything less than AMSOIL or Royal Purple or whatever in their cars; you think Type R owners are prolific lifetime service customers? And with the ADM they likely paid, you think they'll be back to that same dealer when the next gen hybrid Type R comes along, also probably asking ADM?

I don't disagree with any of this. ADM is the fault of us, the consumer. If we would collectively fold our arms and not pay it, it would disappear in short order. But I think it's a good reason to fight for your customers.

Just a clear misalignment about what leverage you think OP has in this situation. He... doesn't have much at all from where I'm standing.

Here's the part where I hope you're wrong. I know you catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar. I don't think you start by fighting like hell and scratching someone's eyes out. I think you plead your case and climb up the ladder, talking to people. Because from where I am sitting, this sucks. If I owned a dealership, had inspected and scanned the car, I would fight like crazy for my customer with corporate if he wanted a buyback. It's such a radically freak occurrence that it deserves a equally radical solution. I've seen local dealerships of other brands facilate a great solution for much less egregious failures.

 

[007]

Come on now, we're just having a discussion. Why is it almost every time someone gets strongly challenged on a message board they think they're being attacked? Isn't that like, why we're here, for heated discussion? Not sure where you get rage from, I just think you're way off base. If strongly disagreeing is rage, then sure. I'm raging. ?‍

And you still are off-base. Tragically. You don't really even have any evidence to speak of, either. So far you're going off pure opinion; your misguided assumption that for some reason a car can't work right ever again if the engine is replaced. Just think for a second on that; it should sound pretty ludicrous saying it loud. It does to me, at least.

Anyway, I guess I'm not going to convince you one way or the other because your mind is clearly made up, but yes I would more or less expect the car to be virtually flawless, and there's no reason other than your misunderstanding that implies it wouldn't be. I just see no reason to think that when OP got the car back anyone would ever be able to tell the work was done aside from the service history. Sure there's room for error but again- I ask you to prove it! Show some real data that validates your claim that it "will never bring the car back to its original glory". Even something along the lines of "percentage of cars with comprehensive engine work done and follow-up service visits" will do. That seems like something that could be out there, if you cared to look for it. I just ask you go find it and actually prove me wrong. Otherwise it's just a rando on a message board making wild claims.

That's not an attack, it's the truth.

Look, the issue here isn't about having a 'heated discussion'; it's about how you're blending subjectivity with objectivity as if they're the same. You can't just declare someone's opinion as wrong, especially when it's grounded in experience. Your staunch belief in dealerships flawlessly executing engine swaps is, at the end of the day, just that - a belief. And let's be real, the disdain for dealership workmanship isn't unfounded.

Forums are littered with tales from both sides of the fence - some sing praises, while many share tales of woe. And believe me, I've got a garage full of stories where 'major repairs' turned into major headaches. Take, for instance, a transmission rebuild on my folks' RX350; what was meant to be a fix ended up downgrading the drive altogether. This isn't solitary musings but one of many instances.

So, when you question the foundation of my skepticism, understand that it's built on a bedrock of disappointing encounters. Engine swaps aren't a trivial matter. And when you blanketly presume that any car can bounce back to its original state post-swap, you're ignoring the 'who' in the equation. My skepticism isn't about the act of replacement but about the capabilities of those behind the wrench - dealerships, in this instance, known more for their misses than hits.

If your dealings with dealerships paint a different picture, I'm all ears. Share with us. How did it go? How did the car drive post-op? Was the engine bay as pristine as showroom floor? How many miles have you clocked since without a hiccup?

But the moment you try to invalidate others' experiences because they don't align with yours, you become part of the problem. It's precisely this kind of mentality that's pushed me away from these forums. It's a pity, really, encountering attitudes like yours.

 

[optronix]

For sure!



Now here, I definitely agree. Sometimes we are just the sum of our experiences.
I have had several Hondas, VWs, and Mitsubishis over the years. Honda has been super tough to deal with in-warranty for my family. Prelude shift forks, faulty A/C compressors, Si paint. Their initial stance is deny/deny/deny. Only after a TSB came out, would they be compelled to act.

A local Golf R guy money shifted his manual R, the dealer pulled the data proving the money shift, and corporate STILL paid for the repair. Likely, because VW still has to work on their public image from Dieselgate. I moderate a Mk8 group, and so many people get good help from VW- fair buyback offers, payout offers, etc when something goes amiss. Mitsu, Subaru, and BMW, same thing. They took pretty good care of me when warranty issues arose.



I'm not worried about mine either. It is stock, likes to rattle interior panels, and other than it making a weird noise on startup once, has been reliable in the time I've owned it.



I don't disagree with any of this. ADM is the fault of us, the consumer. If we would collectively fold our arms and not pay it, it would disappear in short order. But I think it's a good reason to fight for your customers.



Here's the part where I hope you're wrong. I know you catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar. I don't think you start by fighting like hell and scratching someone's eyes out. I think you plead your case and climb up the ladder, talking to people. Because from where I am sitting, this sucks. If I owned a dealership, had inspected and scanned the car, I would fight like crazy for my customer with corporate if he wanted a buyback. It's such a radically freak occurrence that it deserves a equally radical solution. I've seen local dealerships of other brands facilate a great solution for much less egregious failures.

I hope I'm wrong too. It is an exceptionally rare occurrence, and maybe Honda "does the right thing"... but I just don't share in the optimism that it will happen. Other than that I think we're on the same page.

Look, the issue here isn't about having a 'heated discussion'; it's about how you're blending subjectivity with objectivity as if they're the same. You can't just declare someone's opinion as wrong, especially when it's grounded in experience. Your staunch belief in dealerships flawlessly executing engine swaps is, at the end of the day, just that - a belief. And let's be real, the disdain for dealership workmanship isn't unfounded.

Forums are littered with tales from both sides of the fence - some sing praises, while many share tales of woe. And believe me, I've got a garage full of stories where 'major repairs' turned into major headaches. Take, for instance, a transmission rebuild on my folks' RX350; what was meant to be a fix ended up downgrading the drive altogether. This isn't solitary musings but one of many instances.

So, when you question the foundation of my skepticism, understand that it's built on a bedrock of disappointing encounters. Engine swaps aren't a trivial matter. And when you blanketly presume that any car can bounce back to its original state post-swap, you're ignoring the 'who' in the equation. My skepticism isn't about the act of replacement but about the capabilities of those behind the wrench - dealerships, in this instance, known more for their misses than hits.

If your dealings with dealerships paint a different picture, I'm all ears. Share with us. How did it go? How did the car drive post-op? Was the engine bay as pristine as showroom floor? How many miles have you clocked since without a hiccup?

But the moment you try to invalidate others' experiences because they don't align with yours, you become part of the problem. It's precisely this kind of mentality that's pushed me away from these forums. It's a pity, really, encountering attitudes like yours.

I sincerely am sad that you're so thin-skinned. If you think this discussion is enough to push you away from forums like these, then... I guess I just won't engage you in the future. I remember individuals I have discussions with, sure... but I also treat conversations completely independently. I've "dusted it up" with folks on here and in the Integra forums, and then been their best friends in another thread. Am I alone in this? What makes it easy is that I don't take online conversations personally, especially when it doesn't involve any sort of name-calling or degrading personal comments. Which, to be clear, this conversation is devoid of. If I missed something let me know, I'll gladly admit when I'm wrong or have been an asshole. I do not believe I have been in this case, so I'm not sure why you appear to be so distraught over a very simple disagreement.

Besides the fact that all you did was take the same logic you're using to support your argument to somehow invalidate mine lol. "You've had your experiences and I've had mine". I'm fully aware that one can experience a bad repair, yes. And that's possible here. But when did it suddenly become the default expectation? What is the point of a warranty at all then, if you can't trust the dealer to perform the repair???

An engine swap on a brand new car should most definitely be trivial! If you want to talk anecdotal, I have, in all honesty, performed engine swaps myself! Even on brand new vehicles!! Except... I'm not particularly skilled nor even mechanically inclined- there's a reason I don't do it anymore. Also- in one case, it was a god damn Lincoln Navigator. I had to REMOVE THE BODY FROM THE FRAME. Almost completely by myself, I did this. As an apprentice technician at a Lincoln-Mercury dealer, although I did have a 20+ year master tech watching over me. BUT I DID IT MYSELF, when I was 22 years old. I took pride in it, even though it was fucking BRUTAL, and when all was said and done that thing left the dealer and never came back with any issues related to that work (early 00s navigators were pieces of shit, btw...).

I've also technically performed engine swaps with engines that didn't even come with the car from the factory! And they somehow worked and kind of felt like they could have come from the factory that way. Except my 240 that had an SR20DET, we did delete the A/C and that was a mistake... but driveability-wise, it was one of the best cars I ever owned.

So yes it should 100% be expected to be a clean, worry-free repair... which is literally what warranties are for. Your argument that you think dealer techs are shitty and don't GAF and will ruin the car will not help the OP win any arguments, and I don't think it's helping his own expectations either by basically assuring him that his brand new car is trash and will never be the same. It's unfair and unreasonable, and I'm allowed to disagree with you on it in a public setting.

And you shouldn't take that personally.

ALSO FWIW- I mentioned already that I've gone through a lemon law claim. It had to go through a lawyer because Jaguar Land Rover couldn't be bothered to give me the time of day- and all I got was a $3200 check that the lawyer took nearly half of.

 

[CTR39322]

Entertaining discussion going on here

 

[mbaapk]

Entertaining discussion going on here

I didn’t read any of it but can’t believe the topic could warrant so much banter. I guess there are layers to this I must have missed.

 

[Starchland]

Ecu should show max rpm to see if if was money shifted. Typically it is the retainers that would crack from a money shift on past Honda engines. Hmm, cel, rattle, white smoke is typically coolant.

 

[PointByPatrol]

Come on now, we're just having a discussion. Why is it almost every time someone gets strongly challenged on a message board they think they're being attacked? Isn't that like, why we're here, for heated discussion? Not sure where you get rage from, I just think you're way off base. If strongly disagreeing is rage, then sure. I'm raging. ?‍

And you still are off-base. Tragically. You don't really even have any evidence to speak of, either. So far you're going off pure opinion; your misguided assumption that for some reason a car can't work right ever again if the engine is replaced. Just think for a second on that; it should sound pretty ludicrous saying it loud. It does to me, at least.

Anyway, I guess I'm not going to convince you one way or the other because your mind is clearly made up, but yes I would more or less expect the car to be virtually flawless, and there's no reason other than your misunderstanding that implies it wouldn't be. I just see no reason to think that when OP got the car back anyone would ever be able to tell the work was done aside from the service history. Sure there's room for error but again- I ask you to prove it! Show some real data that validates your claim that it "will never bring the car back to its original glory". Even something along the lines of "percentage of cars with comprehensive engine work done and follow-up service visits" will do. That seems like something that could be out there, if you cared to look for it. I just ask you go find it and actually prove me wrong. Otherwise it's just a rando on a message board making wild claims.

That's not an attack, it's the truth.



I do disagree. Is that ok? Please don't be like the other guy and think I'm mad; we're allowed to talk about this stuff on here, right? Without hurt feelings hopefully?

And I still think OP should fight like hell, because I'm certainly not saying it couldn't happen. And to me, buyback vs replace is the same thing. And honestly it's almost certainly AHMC that would be doing the buyback, not the dealer. So there's a layer of abstraction here that I think most of us probably don't even understand, but let's not let that stop a good debate, right?

I still think there's a misunderstanding, especially when it comes to the perceived bargaining posture of the OP. Honda does not give a shit about the press from one engine failure. I think this because even the target audience, people posting in this thread, don't even care. At least not enough to be put off the platform. Maybe a little more than casually interested, but not "I gotta get out while I still can" concerned, right? For one engine failure? Are you really that worried? I'm not. Honda isn't either.

And we'll go back to this "dealerships are making a lot of profits".. you specifically mention ADM and accessories. At what point of the ownership life cycle do these things occur? So why would dealers care about keeping a customer happy when they've already got their ADM and accessories profits?

We can at least all agree that most dealers are pretty short sighted, right? I could almost see this if it were a Porsche... Porsche customers can indeed be whales, because there's always a bigger, badder P car on the horizon, or they go through them rapidly because wealth or whatever... but come on, there's another thread I just commented on yesterday about oil snobs that won't put anything less than AMSOIL or Royal Purple or whatever in their cars; you think Type R owners are prolific lifetime service customers? And with the ADM they likely paid, you think they'll be back to that same dealer when the next gen hybrid Type R comes along, also probably asking ADM?

Just a clear misalignment about what leverage you think OP has in this situation. He... doesn't have much at all from where I'm standing.

I love this guy!!!

It's been my experience that folks with performance cars are the most difficult to deal with. Expectations are way beyond the norm, and some of the requests are pretty nuts. They also tend to bad mouth the dealership no matter what, and are not regular service customers.

Let's face it, a lot of us modify these cars, and perform the service work ourselves too. Then when something goes wrong we go to the dealership, and we're shocked when some of the performance additions come in to question. We then scurry off to the interwebs and attempt to burn them to the ground. Keep in mind that the technicians that work on these aren't familiar in most cases with the performance modifications, and then are forced to work around them without any additional compensation.

Sorry, none of that was related to the OP or this thread. Just chiming in for fun!

But in all seriousness, did the OP return to the dealer that he bought the car from, or is it a different dealer? If it's a different dealer, then why would they go out of their way to trade him out of the car? They've got no skin in the game. No matter what happens, the car will be fixed, and after it is fixed the OP will either receive a buy back (unlikely), trade the car for another, leave the platform, or get some kind of reasonable compensation from Honda (like paying the car note for a month or more based on the down time). I really think any other expectation is a bit lofty considering that nobody that represents that manufacturer has said, "No, we're just not going to cover this under warranty."

 

[AspecR]

I'm going to kindly ask that you guys extend this discussion for as long as possible, Please and Thanks! I'm getting some good back and forth here.

I'll chime in when the thread dies down in the hopes of starting it up again.

 

[PointByPatrol]

I'm going to kindly ask that you guys extend this discussion for as long as possible, Please and Thanks! I'm getting some good back and forth here.

I'll chime in when the thread dies down in the hopes of starting it up again.

You, Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar!

 

[Jester04]

You, Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar!

He indeed is, when I met him in person he also had a fantastic sense of humor.?

 

[TypeRD]

Becoming demanding to the dealer for an entire new vehicle seems strange, and if you ever need to use that dealer again, you likely won’t have the best experiences. As in, TSBs, warranty work, or even a family member buying another car.

?
It is best to maintain a diplomatic approach. Discuss the path forward : What you want vs what Honda Corp. and the dealership can do. Asking for things/discussing is A LOT different than demanding. Understand your rights, but keep the legal stuff in your back pocket until it becomes obvious that a satisfactory resolution can’t be had. Situations like this don’t need to become a battle and I think, in most cases, neither side wants a battle. As the old saying goes : Treat others the way you wish to be treated. The chances of coming to a good resolution will be much greater.

 

[Nothing]

I blew an engine in a new SRT4 Neon many moons ago. They replaced the long block, not the car, and I lived happily ever after until I sold it. I didn’t even think of asking for a whole new car. Buyer was pleased to know it had a new engine with less miles than the body.

Becoming demanding to the dealer for an entire new vehicle seems strange, and if you ever need to use that dealer again, you likely won’t have the best experiences. As in, TSBs, warranty work, or even a family member buying another car.

If it were 4000mi, I'd think engine replacement is the only reasonable option, it's broken in long enough and some part grenaded, or it was abused. At 185 mi, something was wrong to begin. I can't imagine you could abuse a modern engine to break that early without other obvious signs (clutch, tires, transmission, cylinder scoring, etc). And a major defect on such a high demand car deserves consideration.

Don't be demanding, but level that considering the markups paid and how the buyers value the car, hope the dealer can help get some extra care from Honda. They don't have to, and sales is segregated from service, but they are still sales people so think with your sales hat. They want to keep you as a customer if they can, but if they don't think they have a shot, they won't.

That said, I don't think I've ever seen this long of responses on a thread anywhere. Popcorn ran out long ago and now I need a review video at some point.

 

[optronix]

Glad you guys are enjoying it, I'm glad people are engaging. Conversations like this help all of us, if people can bother to read through it.

It also helps if people don't get offended because someone disagrees with them.

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