Catastrophic Engine Failure

[TurboZed-R]

A long block K20C1 is selling for around 6k. Assuming you paid 46k+-, the engine is worth around 7% of the car. Throwing it out and asking for a new one just isn't going to happen. Lemon laws etc, could entitle you to a new one, but you aren't going to get a new one without leg work and a headache. The car will get fixed, honda doesn't have its good reputation for no reason.

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[Tickle]

My trauma with dealerships and warranty work stems from when I used to work in one. With the experience I had with some warranty work and they broke a bunch of clips and missing parts. The techs don’t want to do warranty work since it does not pay well.

I clearly understand what you are saying... I feel it is VERY IMPORTANT to say..

These are the signs of a bad tech and service department. This is a different issue entirely. I don't think it is fair or accurate to imply that warranty work is second rate.

 

[Jester04]

I clearly understand what you are saying... I feel it is VERY IMPORTANT to say..

These are the signs of a bad tech and service department. This is a different issue entirely. I don't think it is fair or accurate to imply that warranty work is second rate.

I agree, and I don’t mean it’s second rate. Just stating the facts of the pay structure and the pressure techs face lead to some issues in some cases.

 

[Noize]

I’m going against the grain here.

185 miles, people.

It is completely unreasonable to pay over $50,000 for a car and for the engine to not last 200 miles.

Very likely, the Carfax will indicate that the engine was replaced. The original owner is going to lose a substantial amount of value on that vehicle.

Why in the heck should the new owner be holding the bag on that whenever he purchased a car in good faith in it didn’t even last a week?

In the case of owner error, or a money shift, I completely agree that the customer be held liable. Not in this case.

If this happened to me, I would advocate through Honda of North America customer service. I would try to go through all the proper channels first. But if they wouldn’t listen, I would raise the flags on the Internet and get big media publications involved in hopes of resolution.

Honda needs to make this right through buy back or at minimum a huge financial compensation to cover that sting on this vehicle’s Carfax.

How many of you guys would pay normal market value for a low mileage type R if you pulled the Carfax and saw engine replacement at 185 miles? Answer: Zero.

 

[optronix]

I’m going against the grain here.

185 miles, people.

It is completely unreasonable to pay over $50,000 for a car and for the engine to not last 200 miles.

Very likely, the Carfax will indicate that the engine was replaced. The original owner is going to lose a substantial amount of value on that vehicle.

Why in the heck should the new owner be holding the bag on that whenever he purchased a car in good faith in it didn’t even last a week?

In the case of owner error, or a money shift, I completely agree that the customer be held liable. Not in this case.

If this happened to me, I would advocate through Honda of North America customer service. I would try to go through all the proper channels first. But if they wouldn’t listen, I would raise the flags on the Internet and get big media publications involved in hopes of resolution.

Honda needs to make this right through buy back or at minimum a huge financial compensation to cover that sting on this vehicle’s Carfax.

How many of you guys would pay normal market value for a low mileage type R if you pulled the Carfax and saw engine replacement at 185 miles? Answer: Zero.

This is an emotional response. And to be completely frank, an entitled one.

Honda will "make this right" by making the repair under warranty.

Zero people would pay "market value" or whatever for this car with a replacement engine- this might be true (but honestly probably not given today's market but that's another discussion...), but that's where the lemon laws come in handy. OP could easily get a check for diminished value- I already stated that's exactly what happened to me- but there is absolutely no reason Honda needs to take back this car. That's not to say they absolutely won't- there might be reasons they decide to do just that, we'll see as this story unfolds- but under normal, reasonable scenarios it shouldn't be an expectation.

My trauma with dealerships and warranty work stems from when I used to work in one. With the experience I had with some warranty work and they broke a bunch of clips and missing parts. The techs don’t want to do warranty work since it does not pay well.

Wow. Just... wow.

I clearly understand what you are saying... I feel it is VERY IMPORTANT to say..

These are the signs of a bad tech and service department. This is a different issue entirely. I don't think it is fair or accurate to imply that warranty work is second rate.

^100000%. If dealer techs are breaking clips and doing subpar work, the entire organization from the top down needs to be purged. I know it's been a while (ok, 20 years but still...), but I worked in a service department too, and warranty work may not have been everyone's first choice, but it was absolutely important because it was a steady source of income. Of course any tech is going to prefer to do work entirely on the customer's dollar, but as we all should be very well aware, a TON of people are averse to bringing their cars in to a dealership to pay thousands of dollars in repairs, so warranty work is CRITICAL to keep techs employed and paid.

While I know there are some (maybe many...) dealerships who have techs and possibly even management with this mentality, this just all gets down to being a professional. Which could open up a litany of topics on generational tendencies and all of that nonsense... but techs who "don't want to do warranty work" and rush through it and do a piss poor job is the exact same thing as the scene from Waiting when the kitchen did all the nasty stuff to the food because the customer was an asshole. It just has no place in any professional organization, and I'm sorry that was your experience but it most certainly should not be the norm.

 

[Tickle]

I agree, and I don’t mean it’s second rate. Just stating the facts of the pay structure and the pressure techs face lead to some issues in some cases.

From a dealers perspective...

We give correct work to the correct technician. It doesn't make sense for me to schedule/put someone in a position where they can't succeed.

I have techs that EAT warranty/recall work and ask for seconds. They would do it all day of they could.

There are also tech that... Should stay with routine maintenance and state inspections and the like. With enough repetition they can grow so you figure out to make that happen...

I'm going down a rabbit hole here but you see what I mean.

A good shop knows what to do.

 

[Jester04]

I agree with you guys, it really depends on the service center and the way the shop is ran. Also it’s good when you have a service advisor that knows what tech to give the work to. I am grateful for people like you @Tickle that takes their job seriously and takes care of the customer.

@optronix

Yeah dude that place was a mess. That was at a Ford dealership when I had my focus ST and it went in for a recall. Headlight clips broken and you could not unplug the headlights. And when I had the BRZ took it to the dealer for a oil change they put the wrong washer for the drain plug and the car was leaking oil all the way home until I noticed the pool of oil in my driveway. Maybe I’m just unlucky but this is the reason I’m so picky on who works on my car which is mostly me unless it’s something I can’t do.

 

[Nothing]

I really hate to say it but asking for a new vehicle because of an engine failure is just not within reason. There is a power train warranty for a reason, and that is to replace the powertrain. An engine failure is extremely rare, but somebody will inevitably have one. They will drop a new crate motor (the same every single FK5 has) right into it. Probably even give you an extended lifetime powertrain warranty to top it off due to the rarity of a Honda failing.

It is as not within reason as asking $5k-$20k markup. There is no rules here, might as well play ball.

 

[Nothing]

From a dealers perspective...

We give correct work to the correct technician. It doesn't make sense for me to schedule/put someone in a position where they can't succeed.

I have techs that EAT warranty/recall work and ask for seconds. They would do it all day of they could.

There are also tech that... Should stay with routine maintenance and state inspections and the like. With enough repetition they can grow so you figure out to make that happen...

I'm going down a rabbit hole here but you see what I mean.

A good shop knows what to do.

Now only if every dealer had a SA that cared as much, we wouldn't all have bad relationships with the dealer. Your customers are lucky!

 

[Noize]

This is an emotional response. And to be completely frank, an entitled one.

Honda will "make this right" by making the repair under warranty.

Zero people would pay "market value" or whatever for this car with a replacement engine- this might be true (but honestly probably not given today's market but that's another discussion...), but that's where the lemon laws come in handy. OP could easily get a check for diminished value- I already stated that's exactly what happened to me- but there is absolutely no reason Honda needs to take back this car. That's not to say they absolutely won't- there might be reasons they decide to do just that, we'll see as this story unfolds- but under normal, reasonable scenarios it shouldn't be an expectation.

Frankly, you’re entitled to your opinion as well, pejorative or not.

Honda is well known for build quality, but notorious for being tough to work with inside warranty claims.

Volkswagen is the opposite. Electrical or mechanical issues, VWoA is better customer focused, and someone will advocate for you if an extreme anomaly case like this arises.

This isn’t a 2 year old car with 24,000 miles. I don’t think expecting a sub 200 mile brand new car to not have an engine replacement on its vehicle history report qualifies as entitlement. I believe it to be good customer service. You paid for a new car, you ought to get one.

At some point, it’s a basic cost analysis. Buy the car back, repair, and sell it with the engine replacement disclosed at whatever the market will bear.

Certainly the manufacturer should take every avenue to explore and prove this isn’t a customer fault- scan for ECU tuning, find if there are overrev codes, evidence of modifications or neglect that caused this. If none of these things are found to be true, cowboy up and buy it back.

Edit: I have no issue with a diminished value check if the OP and Honda can come to terms. But it’s going to need to reflect that kind of hit.

Lastly, this is also not a Pilot or Accord. It’s a Type R. To some, having a clean Carfax on a car like this is meaningful.

 

[mbaapk]

They should throw in a 10 year warranty and some cash for any resale impact. New motor install should be just fine. Sucks that it happened and quite frankly wish those odds would strike on a lotto instead but have to roll with it.

 

[optronix]

Lastly, this is also not a Pilot or Accord. It’s a Type R. To some, having a clean Carfax on a car like this is meaningful.

This is the entitlement I'm talking about. You can call it pejorative, I call it educational. So many people get wrapped around this idea of "specialness" of the Type R, but that is such a supreme fallacy. Please tell me, what incentive does a dealer have to "make an exception" for a Type R over any other Honda? Your interpretation of a clean Carfax might hold up with a diminished value claim, but I'm still struggling to comprehend how this translates to a "necessity" for replacing the car? OP bought a brand new car, and guess what- he got a brand new car. The engine dying changes nothing about that fact, and it will be repaired at no cost as the terms of the warranty dictate.

To be honest, enthusiasts that pay nearly 2x the cost of any other civic are the worst type of customers a dealership will ever have to deal with lol.

Maybe the lesson learned from all this is that it really doesn't matter if it's a Type R or not. It's made by Honda, not Ferrari. If anything, that would make it actually HARDER to justify getting a new car, because they are limited compared to any other Civic on the lot- but it's still beholden to the typical rules a dealership will abide by.

Which is, to be clear, to make the repair and move on. Let the customer take it up with Big Honda if they want to try to force a buyback, and the end result will 99% likely be a check for diminished value.

I hope I'm wrong! I feel for the OP and I think we all would enjoy a happy ending. But I just have no inclination based on experience that will be what happens here, and it's still intriguing to me that some folks are so ADAMANT that the car be replaced.

 

[007]

This whole line of thinking is complete nonsense.

Why bother with a powertrain warranty at all then? Engine goes, welp, that's the end of it. Car's gotta go!

Seriously, wtf.

I get that it's frustrating that this happens to a brand new car but thems the breaks. I'm just glad that this universal "just get a new one" mentality has since been outweighed by the pragmatic folks who are bringing this thread back to reality.

edit- I think this is actually a very useful thread. Most folks probably have this theory, that if anything "bad" happens the lemon law will just jump to your defense and make everything right. That's just simply not the case, at least in the vast majority of these admittedly extremely rare circumstances. I think we all could use some education on this, and I hope the OP continues to update us on how this all works out.

Cool your jets. What's with the rage?

And this aversion to the lemon law? It's simple: it either does the job or it doesn't. It's certainly worth a shot.

I never said he should ditch the car. The truth is, major fixes like engine or transmission swaps will never bring the car back to its original glory. Warranties, including powertrain warranties, are just sales tactics to make you buy the car and offer a false sense of security. That's why some of the most unreliable cars, like Hyundais, have had the best powertrain warranties for years.

Anyway, they’re not promising a flawless engine swap; they're just there to get the engine replaced and the car moving. Whether it actually runs well afterward is anyone's guess. After years of seeing dealerships handle these swaps, I can tell you they rarely end up satisfactory. You're just too trusting of dealerships.

 

[Noize]

This is the entitlement I'm talking about. You can call it pejorative, I call it educational. So many people get wrapped around this idea of "specialness" of the Type R, but that is such a supreme fallacy. Please tell me, what incentive does a dealer have to "make an exception" for a Type R over any other Honda? Your interpretation of a clean Carfax might hold up with a diminished value claim, but I'm still struggling to comprehend how this translates to a "necessity" for replacing the car? OP bought a brand new car, and guess what- he got a brand new car. The engine dying changes nothing about that fact, and it will be repaired at no cost as the terms of the warranty dictate.

To be honest, enthusiasts that pay nearly 2x the cost of any other civic are the worst type of customers a dealership will ever have to deal with lol.

Maybe the lesson learned from all this is that it really doesn't matter if it's a Type R or not. It's made by Honda, not Ferrari. If anything, that would make it actually HARDER to justify getting a new car, because they are limited compared to any other Civic on the lot- but it's still beholden to the typical rules a dealership will abide by.

Which is, to be clear, to make the repair and move on. Let the customer take it up with Big Honda if they want to try to force a buyback, and the end result will 99% likely be a check for diminished value.

I hope I'm wrong! I feel for the OP and I think we all would enjoy a happy ending. But I just have no inclination based on experience that will be what happens here, and it's still intriguing to me that some folks are so ADAMANT that the car be replaced.

I think the main misunderstanding here is “replace”. Of course they’re not going to just give him a new car. Replace to me means buyback.

At that point, let the buyer decide if he/she wants to search for another Type R or move to a different platform.

Now, on to: “What incentive does a dealer have to make an exception for a Type R?”
Are you serious? How about the $5000+ they pocketed for additional markup, or the 20x markup on unwanted companion accessories that the buyer was forced to take if he buys one?

One place you and I agree is that the specialness of these cars is overhyped, but these dealerships have skin in the game, too. It is expensive rattly car that dealerships are making a lot of profit on.

If 1 in 5,000 Hondas have infant engine fatality within a week of delivery and less than 300 miles, Honda should pay their cost and the dealership should pay for profit + ADM and buy it back.

It’s completely cool if you disagree. I’m just stating that the OP is holding more cards than he thinks. This is horrible press, and I would fight like hell to get it resolved in his shoes.

 

[TurboZed-R]

Now only if every dealer had a SA that cared as much, we wouldn't all have bad relationships with the dealer. Your customers are lucky!

A dealer would have Honda reimburse them for an R to literally give away, versus honda sending out a 6k long block and a couple hours of labor.... blown engines aren't this mystical creature or something new.

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