Spying on you?

[Tickle]

@pigfacedalarm

I'm definitely open to idea that it doesn't have the driver feedback. I just don't think what you've provided is evidence that it does not.

I wouldn't expect it to mention driver feedback on those screens. Also your screenshot seem to be taken just before you posted. I mentioned on previous posts that Honda has since discontinued the practice.

I don't trust Gemini for the answer either. I can provide you with a screenshot that suggests that it (FL5) does have driver feedback. This coming from HondaInfoCenter.com by way of Google. The problem is that the link to the information is now broken. Which makes sense since 1. Honda has discontinued this. 2. There seems to be some sort of legal deal going on.

Unfairly the burden of proof is on you. Lol.

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[optronix]

@pigfacedalarm

I'm definitely open to idea that it doesn't have the driver feedback. I just don't think what you've provided is evidence that it does not.

I wouldn't expect it to mention driver feedback on those screens. Also your screenshot seem to be taken just before you posted. I mentioned on previous posts that Honda has since discontinued the practice.

I don't trust Gemini for the answer either. I can provide you with a screenshot that suggests that it (FL5) does have driver feedback. This coming from HondaInfoCenter.com by way of Google. The problem is that the link to the information is now broken. Which makes sense since 1. Honda has discontinued this. 2. There seems to be some sort of legal deal going on.

Unfairly the burden of proof is on you. Lol.

You must have missed my earlier post, or dismissed it... but it gets down to whether or not the Civic Type R has a Telematics Control Unit (TCU). This information is not trivial to track down lol.

Apparently only select models have it as a "feature", and for Civics it seems that the Type R does indeed have it, but you have to jump through hoops to find out. Best I can come up with is the Hondalink website, where you can select your vehicle and it walks you through the features.

If you select a basic Civic, you get a chart that looks something like this; note the absence of the "Remote" column (forgive the HDR washout, should still be legible):

But if you select Civic Type R, you get this, with green checks in all boxes, including "Remote":

You also get a high-level breakdown of what each service includes. Here's what comes with Remote:

Note the features like Alexa, speed alert, data wipe, geofence, etc. All intrusive shit that would require some sort of outbound connectivity to occur. Very strongly implies the presence of a Telematics Control Unit. Their data sharing policies may have changed, but the capability is very much still there.

Link for reference:

https://mygarage.honda.com/s/honda-product-compatibility-result?fb=true

Also, quite interestingly, the Integra Type S does NOT appear to have a TCU.

 

[Superhatch]

Note the features like Alexa, speed alert, data wipe, geofence, etc. All intrusive shit that would require some sort of outbound connectivity to occur. Very strongly implies the presence of a Telematics Control Unit. Their data sharing policies may have changed, but the capability is very much still there.

I don't think a lot of people read the initial NYT article or understand what Honda and other mfgs were doing with the data.

We have another thread about this shortly after the article came out and I don't know if were ever going to definitively know any answers unless we get an email from Honda USA directly. I've reached out but haven't gotten any reply.

 

[Tickle]

I read you post. I wasn't sure what to make of what you were saying.

Pigface mentioned that it does not... So I simply was looking for evidence to suggest the opposite of what I suspect. Obviously I wasn't satisfied with the evidence to the contrary so I still believe my Honda was capable of sharing that information.

 

[Navy619]

Under settings there's an option for sharing data on/off. Is there any benefits to this?

 

[optronix]

Yup, it has all the features you mentioned. I’ve used them all- I looked for drivers feedback months ago to see how fast a performance shop went during a road test and was disappointed to see the type r lacked that feature. Drivers feedback is the feature on other Hondas that worked similar to the progressive snapshot or State Farm drive safe and save.

Yeah... I never paid attention to these "connect" features. Not since Porsche started introducing subscription services- I took one look at what "value" they provided, laughed it off, and literally just pretended they didn't exist and never gave them a second thought. Same for Acuralink... I did actually make an account but as soon as it asked me to do something else (punch in the VIN I think?) I gave up and never followed through connecting it to my car.

So maybe I'm not the best resource for this, but I did start doing a little bit of research when all these articles were coming out about the data sharing and people were making a fuss on the forums. I do know a little bit about data and how it can be collected and used, so figured I'd at least attempt some due diligence before storming the castle, proverbially speaking.

It is pretty shady. It's shady just in the simple fact that manufacturers seem to actively try to hide the functionality that powers these features, which is apparently what's making it so hard to "casually" track down more information on this topic. Maybe this is by accident because a lot of companies (especially foreign-owned where English is not the primary language...) are just bad at documentation. But personally I think it's more nefarious than that.

I feel like what you're experiencing with the lack of Driver Feedback is a software feature that uses this data. Maybe that was there before all the fuss was made and Honda changed their policies, maybe not, as you imply. But I think there is still evidence that the FL5 does have the capability to "spy on you", whereas for many other cars in the lineup the conversation is far less relevant. And based on my admittedly cursory research, I think this all ties back to the presence of the Telematics Control Unit, which enables the capability for the car to proactively reach out to let's just say Big Honda if you enable data sharing (I think it's actually ON by default, but could be wrong...), whereas otherwise if you didn't have a TCU you'd have to go through the steps to connect your phone for it to "phone home".

I'm still also trying to figure out if the TCU is required for the actual collection of this data. So far I think it is, based on the limited feature set for some models.

So the question still remains, is Honda still collecting your data, just now saying they're not sharing it with external entities? That matters to many people.

I read you post. I wasn't sure what to make of what you were saying.

Pigface mentioned that it does not... So I simply was looking for evidence to suggest the opposite of what I suspect. Obviously I wasn't satisfied with the evidence to the contrary so I still believe my Honda was capable of sharing that information.

If it has a TCU, then I'd say yes- it is capable of sharing that information. It's up to you if you want to believe Honda when they say they're not doing it (anymore)...

There is still the matter of finding firm evidence that the FL5 does indeed have a TCU. So far I got one ebay listing of one for sale that says it's for a Type R. I even tried to cross-reference the part number (with Google) and just got an obscure 3rd party Honda Parts website offering it for sale.

Others have tried to call Honda and Acura North America- this is what actually led me down this path. Someone on the Integra forums say they did this and were told that the Type S does not have a TCU, so the data sharing conversation is not relevant as the car isn't capable of collecting and sharing the data.

I encourage someone else to take over this research project lol.

Under settings there's an option for sharing data on/off. Is there any benefits to this?

To my knowledge, the features listed in the "Remote" section above will be unlocked if you turn this on. If it is not on, they won't work. If having these features is more valuable to you than the possibility of your data being shared with Honda or external entities, then there is benefit.

 

[Gansan]

I agree, the car technically doesn't need an extra control unit to gather the data. it has all the sensors it needs: GPS, accelerometers, brake line pressure, throttle position, steering angle, and an internet connection. A programmer could just write a little software module to report the data. However, I don't think the company would report data without disclosing it. In fact, if they stated clearly that they don't share the data, I'm inclined to believe it because to do otherwise would expose the company to huge legal liabilities. The lawyers would internally block any suggestion to do that.

Not that companies haven't lied and been caught before. But look at the immediate 180 that GM did. It did huge reputational damage that's much worse than any money they got for selling the data. The stink will remain on them for years. Other companies will hopefully take note.

I'm also sure there was probably internal discussion about how the CTR/ITS would be tracked and how that would affect any data that was reported.

Edit: by "tracked" I meant taken to the racetrack.

 

[jets-do-miami]

no, they can't do that

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driver-tracking-insurance.html

 

[SlippyFist]

Our cars are Japanese not Chinese. So don’t worry

every car made in the last 20 years is 90% a chinese car now lol

 

[cryptolime]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driver-tracking-insurance.html

i'm not subscribing to read that. do you have another link?

 

[Gansan]

i'm not subscribing to read that. do you have another link?

here's a gift link: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/...e_code=1.tU0.PtQF.f7407XF2_tKf&smid=url-share

 

[blueroadster]

From what I recall, the TCU has two antennas for constant communication to the mothership to collect and sell your vehicle/driving data to "trusted third parties" where you consented with said communications via an agreement when you purchased the vehicle. Most do not read the fine print or would walk out of the door if they read the vehicle manufacturer's privacy agreement.

One can pay for Hondalink to see some of that data that is constantly uploading to the cloud. Other manufacturers take it a step forward by disabling convenience features (e.g., remote start) unless you agree to pay a monthly subscription fee.

 

[Sporky McGeuschky]

Yeah... I never paid attention to these "connect" features. Not since Porsche started introducing subscription services- I took one look at what "value" they provided, laughed it off, and literally just pretended they didn't exist and never gave them a second thought. Same for Acuralink... I did actually make an account but as soon as it asked me to do something else (punch in the VIN I think?) I gave up and never followed through connecting it to my car.

So maybe I'm not the best resource for this, but I did start doing a little bit of research when all these articles were coming out about the data sharing and people were making a fuss on the forums. I do know a little bit about data and how it can be collected and used, so figured I'd at least attempt some due diligence before storming the castle, proverbially speaking.

...I think there is still evidence that the FL5 does have the capability to "spy on you"...

... I think this all ties back to the presence of the Telematics Control Unit, which enables the capability for...

.... I encourage someone else to take over this research project lol.

You know what? Not it. Not it to be the one to "Opt Out" when these companies should be Required by Law to "Opt In" to even know our First Names, in the First Place.

Don't know if anything I just said has any meaning at all... but is sure as Fck sounded authouratative as Fck when I wrote it.

And there you have it. That is who these people are.
Wannabe authoratatives, just because. Fuggem.

"Fuggem Yesterday.
Fuggem Today.
Fuggem Tomorrow.
Fuggem the Next Day, and
Fuggem Forever
... and Beyond."

Fugg LightYear​

C'Mon, Don't Y'all kow the famous
Declaration of Fuggem,
by Fugg LightYear?

"FTW". Stands for "Fugg Tha World".
Always has. Always will.

You're Welcome.

Cheers.

 

[Cueyo]

Going back to OPs question, I don't see why Honda would be inclined to sell to insurance companies specifically to raise rates. Unless absolutely every insurance company was giving Honda tons of money for something that they likely already have the data for, then I can't see how this would be beneficial to anyone. It would make much more sense that Honda shares data with hired contracting companies to analyze it, or even just companies like JDpower who exist for that function.

 

[Superhatch]

Going back to OPs question, I don't see why Honda would be inclined to sell to insurance companies specifically to raise rates. Unless absolutely every insurance company was giving Honda tons of money for something that they likely already have the data for, then I can't see how this would be beneficial to anyone. It would make much more sense that Honda shares data with hired contracting companies to analyze it, or even just companies like JDpower who exist for that function.

GM's operating budget is considerably larger than Hondas and they saw value in only getting some single digit millions of dollars to sell their user data. We're Honda fans but never forget they are just a corporation with a board trying to make the most profit possible.

Also what I've learned since this thread started is that even if you don't have any data being sent from Honda directly your apps could be doing the same thing. Unless you have tracking set to "only while using app" or if you have an Apple phone you can also "ask not to share data" on your apps every single one of them can be doing the same thing were talking about the auto mfgs. doing.

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