FL5 Overheated on Track

[Vito.FL5]

I haven´t tested the latest setup at the track, but another addition I made, other then the PWR and the HEL oil cooler, was divorcing the transmission from the water system.

Main reason for that is to remove parallel systems.

Keep in mind that if you plug all parallel systems and still run a thermostat, shit will happen.

now there is an oil cooler for the trans.

Also ordered this from... CHINA lol

this will probably take forever to arive, but at some point it will


I´ll let you know if it really helps

 

[TW00Si]

https://store.27won.com/honda-civic-acura-integra-air-intake-snorkel.html

Is this better for air flow but sacrificing the flow hitting the radiator?

 

[PointByPatrol]

https://store.27won.com/honda-civic-acura-integra-air-intake-snorkel.html

Is this better for air flow but sacrificing the flow hitting the radiator?

It does seem like it would block the radiator a bit...

I really wish there were openings on the sides of the lower center grill like on the fk8 for us to put oil coolers/trans coolers and the like. I wouldn't worry as much about adding the snorkel with some of those items moved...kind of like on the spoon car.

 

[TW00Si]

Should get some data on it. Hint hint ?

 

[Vito.FL5]

I have some spare time this week, so I´m builing another radiator to fit behind the intercooler.

But when I stop to think about this, it pisses me off that is so hard to cool down a car that shouldn´t have this problem to begin with.

I ordered the hondata fuel kit also so I can run at least E60 and stupid rich to help keep EGT´s down.

I´m thinking also about a radiator water spray.


I wonder where will this end

 

[turbo8765]

I just read this whole thread to catch up. I'd posted some temp related questions in a different thread.. apologies. Please apply in this thread if possible

Also, another thanks to PointBy for both pushing the hell out of the platform and posting an epic amount of info along the way. We should have a go fund me to help him through the recent bump in the road.

With all that said, my summary and questions...

PointBy overheated at CMP as per the video, but the car was not stock. Keep in mind stickier tires = not stock. Not the relevant feature from his car, but still true.

Several people have replied to this thread and reported not overheating on track in a stock car (add myself). Some of those have had extra power above stock and one reported participating in TT (although maybe not directly referenced to the FL5?), which implies some experience level.

I've been unable to find evidence of a stock car overheating. Misha's vid is def interesting (did not overheat, and also not stock). The only car that I've been unable to find that actually overheated is PointBy. My definition of overheating is limp mode due to high engine coolant or oil temp. It's still unclear to me if PointBy had a power reducing limp mode? But there was an "engine too hot" warning on the dash... so most would count that.

I think the combination of a guy driving the hell out of it, plus the aftermarket IC, plus CMP was the problem. I suspect with stock IC he would not have overheated. For anyone who has not been to CMP, it is very hard on your car. Murderous on your brakes.

I think the combination of these 3 things is contributing to internet lore to quote an earlier poster in this thread, that the car overheats stock. I would argue, based only on the evidence I've been able to compile (please correct me if you have more info!!!) that there is zero evidence the car overheats stock. Furthermore, there is evidence that even with mods including increased power the car can be tracked without overheating. I've been doing track days for a very long time. I've seen a lot of drivers do mods to improve consistency and longevity in the absence of data... and sometimes to their detriment. The point I'm making is that honda did a good job, and any changes to the cooling systems should be highly data driven. Vendors make a lot of wonderful parts that make our cars better. They also make a lot of parts we don't actually need.

Questions...
Can we confrim the coolant temp that triggers the "engine too hot" warning light? 125c?

Can we confirm if anyone has hit limp mode due to high temps?

Does anyone have the data for the OE tune files that would show timing retardation vs ECT (and whatever else it tracks against)?

Is there any objective third party testing for any of the aftermarket cooling solutions?

 

[CTRifecta]

I wonder if a rear mounted turbo would help things, seems like it's in the perfect place stock to just heat the radiator up.

 

[Vito.FL5]

I just read this whole thread to catch up. I'd posted some temp related questions in a different thread.. apologies. Please apply in this thread if possible

Also, another thanks to PointBy for both pushing the hell out of the platform and posting an epic amount of info along the way. We should have a go fund me to help him through the recent bump in the road.

With all that said, my summary and questions...

PointBy overheated at CMP as per the video, but the car was not stock. Keep in mind stickier tires = not stock. Not the relevant feature from his car, but still true.

Several people have replied to this thread and reported not overheating on track in a stock car (add myself). Some of those have had extra power above stock and one reported participating in TT (although maybe not directly referenced to the FL5?), which implies some experience level.

I've been unable to find evidence of a stock car overheating. Misha's vid is def interesting (did not overheat, and also not stock). The only car that I've been unable to find that actually overheated is PointBy. My definition of overheating is limp mode due to high engine coolant or oil temp. It's still unclear to me if PointBy had a power reducing limp mode? But there was an "engine too hot" warning on the dash... so most would count that.

I think the combination of a guy driving the hell out of it, plus the aftermarket IC, plus CMP was the problem. I suspect with stock IC he would not have overheated. For anyone who has not been to CMP, it is very hard on your car. Murderous on your brakes.

I think the combination of these 3 things is contributing to internet lore to quote an earlier poster in this thread, that the car overheats stock. I would argue, based only on the evidence I've been able to compile (please correct me if you have more info!!!) that there is zero evidence the car overheats stock. Furthermore, there is evidence that even with mods including increased power the car can be tracked without overheating. I've been doing track days for a very long time. I've seen a lot of drivers do mods to improve consistency and longevity in the absence of data... and sometimes to their detriment. The point I'm making is that honda did a good job, and any changes to the cooling systems should be highly data driven. Vendors make a lot of wonderful parts that make our cars better. They also make a lot of parts we don't actually need.

Questions...
Can we confrim the coolant temp that triggers the "engine too hot" warning light? 125c?

Can we confirm if anyone has hit limp mode due to high temps?

Does anyone have the data for the OE tune files that would show timing retardation vs ECT (and whatever else it tracks against)?

Is there any objective third party testing for any of the aftermarket cooling solutions?

car limps over 120C, sometimes it goes all the way to 125 then limps.

but keep in mind, anything over 100 is bad. 110 is as far as I would consider acceptable.

These cars have many design flaws that lead to overheating. Keep in mind car manufacturers are more interested in making the engine warm up as fast as possible then making it cool under hard use.

And trust me, the car overheats stock, even with less than stock power it cant do a single lap on a Brazilian summer day.


X axis is ECT, Y axis is IAT. Both in Celsius.

Note that this is not for power reduction, this is for combustion correction. Side effect is higher and higher EGT and the car raising boost to keep up with the torque deliver and making the problem worse.

Also keep in mind this:

Torque reduction from too high temperature is NOT modeled, I´ve never seen a car tuned like that. Every single car I know has some sort of power reduction from ECT after a certain point.

I do model this very aggressively after 105 in my personal car and at 110C I have around 230-240whp and temps still climb.

The only sort of actual power reduction we have is this:

But this is INTAKE TEMPS, not ECT, and this comes from a turbocharger compressor model provided by the turbo manufacturer. This is not intended to protect the engine, it´s there to protect the turbo instead.


If you look closely to how the system is setup you can see part of the reason it overheats.

look close:

There are 4 parallel systems, a lot of the water is not flowing trough the radiator. This is bad.

Modern cars that have parallel systems use water pumps to control flow to this systems, and most of them have auxiliar radiators on the bumpers. Look at an RS3 for example. Or M-series BMW´s.

 

[blueroadster]

First mods for this and many other cars in the category should be a replacement of the inefficient intercooler and radiator at the same time. The stock thermostat is good but the intercooler seems to be constantly heat soaked where output temps are too high. If charge temps are more near ambient, then cooler air enters the combustion chamber and the coolant has less heat to try to dissipate through the radiator that sits behind the intercooler.

4 parallel systems in the FL5...Ugh...Cooling and flow needs to be fixed.

 

[Gansan]

car limps over 120C, sometimes it goes all the way to 125 then limps.

but keep in mind, anything over 100 is bad. 110 is as far as I would consider acceptable.

These cars have many design flaws that lead to overheating. Keep in mind car manufacturers are more interested in making the engine warm up as fast as possible then making it cool under hard use.

And trust me, the car overheats stock, even with less than stock power it cant do a single lap on a Brazilian summer day.


X axis is ECT, Y axis is IAT. Both in Celsius.

Note that this is not for power reduction, this is for combustion correction. Side effect is higher and higher EGT and the car raising boost to keep up with the torque deliver and making the problem worse.

Also keep in mind this:

Torque reduction from too high temperature is NOT modeled, I´ve never seen a car tuned like that. Every single car I know has some sort of power reduction from ECT after a certain point.

I do model this very aggressively after 105 in my personal car and at 110C I have around 230-240whp and temps still climb.

The only sort of actual power reduction we have is this:

But this is INTAKE TEMPS, not ECT, and this comes from a turbocharger compressor model provided by the turbo manufacturer. This is not intended to protect the engine, it´s there to protect the turbo instead.


If you look closely to how the system is setup you can see part of the reason it overheats.

look close:

There are 4 parallel systems, a lot of the water is not flowing trough the radiator. This is bad.

Modern cars that have parallel systems use water pumps to control flow to this systems, and most of them have auxiliar radiators on the bumpers. Look at an RS3 for example. Or M-series BMW´s.

Sorry, not all of us are familiar with the internal passages of the thermostat housing. Can you explain the four parallel loops? I can see the heater core (although that takes in hot coolant so that probably doesn’t count), the engine block and head, oil cooler, and mtf cooler. Not sure if I’m correct.

Can you also explain in more detail what you mean by “a lot of the water is not flowing through the radiator”? It sounds like you’re saying, for example, water can go through the mtf cooler then go directly into the oil cooler loop without going through the radiator to cool down? Or does coolant somehow go through the engine, exits as hot water and skips the radiator, then goes into the oil cooler?

 

[Vito.FL5]

Sorry, not all of us are familiar with the internal passages of the thermostat housing. Can you explain the four parallel loops? I can see the heater core (although that takes in hot coolant so that probably doesn’t count), the engine block and head, oil cooler, and mtf cooler. Not sure if I’m correct.

Can you also explain in more detail what you mean by “a lot of the water is not flowing through the radiator”? It sounds like you’re saying, for example, water can go through the mtf cooler then go directly into the oil cooler loop without going through the radiator to cool down? Or does coolant somehow go through the engine, exits as hot water and skips the radiator, then goes into the oil cooler?

The hot water comes out of the head, then it has 5 possible paths:

To the radiator, then back to the engine

To the turbo, then back to the engine

To the transmission, then back to the engine

To the heater core, then back to the engine

To the throttle body then back to the engine.


See that a good amount of water is not being cooler on it cycle trough the engine. It´s either getting more energy from the turbo and transmission, or just circulating back to the engine without cooling at throtthe body and heater core (assuming you dont have hot air blowing out the vents).

I´m remodeling the whole system in my car so that all the waster has to pass either on the main radiator, or on a secondary one. Let´s see where that goes.

 

[keller]

There's another branch that goes to the expansion tank before returning to the engine. In the FL5, this branch leaves from the radiator hot side endtank. It's another path that bypasses the cooling circuit.

Sorry, not all of us are familiar with the internal passages of the thermostat housing. Can you explain the four parallel loops?

For more info:
https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/alphadigitals-fk8-secondary-radiator-install.83468/post-1288712

 

[Gansan]

The hot water comes out of the head, then it has 5 possible paths:

To the radiator, then back to the engine

To the turbo, then back to the engine

To the transmission, then back to the engine

To the heater core, then back to the engine

To the throttle body then back to the engine.


See that a good amount of water is not being cooler on it cycle trough the engine. It´s either getting more energy from the turbo and transmission, or just circulating back to the engine without cooling at throtthe body and heater core (assuming you dont have hot air blowing out the vents).

I´m remodeling the whole system in my car so that all the waster has to pass either on the main radiator, or on a secondary one. Let´s see where that goes.

That’s very interesting!

The heater core usually has a valve so coolant doesn’t flow when there’s no hot air required, so that specific loop seems fine to me. I’ll be interested in seeing the result if you can remodel your cooling system—but I have doubts will make a huge difference. My guess is the large diameter tubing that leads to the radiator means most of the water volume is already going there anyway, so any improvement from redirecting the other smaller tubs will be incremental.

Edit: (I see from the other post the heater doesn’t have a valve in our cars.)

 

[Jester04]

I just read this whole thread to catch up. I'd posted some temp related questions in a different thread.. apologies. Please apply in this thread if possible

Also, another thanks to PointBy for both pushing the hell out of the platform and posting an epic amount of info along the way. We should have a go fund me to help him through the recent bump in the road.

With all that said, my summary and questions...

PointBy overheated at CMP as per the video, but the car was not stock. Keep in mind stickier tires = not stock. Not the relevant feature from his car, but still true.

Several people have replied to this thread and reported not overheating on track in a stock car (add myself). Some of those have had extra power above stock and one reported participating in TT (although maybe not directly referenced to the FL5?), which implies some experience level.

I've been unable to find evidence of a stock car overheating. Misha's vid is def interesting (did not overheat, and also not stock). The only car that I've been unable to find that actually overheated is PointBy. My definition of overheating is limp mode due to high engine coolant or oil temp. It's still unclear to me if PointBy had a power reducing limp mode? But there was an "engine too hot" warning on the dash... so most would count that.

I think the combination of a guy driving the hell out of it, plus the aftermarket IC, plus CMP was the problem. I suspect with stock IC he would not have overheated. For anyone who has not been to CMP, it is very hard on your car. Murderous on your brakes.

I think the combination of these 3 things is contributing to internet lore to quote an earlier poster in this thread, that the car overheats stock. I would argue, based only on the evidence I've been able to compile (please correct me if you have more info!!!) that there is zero evidence the car overheats stock. Furthermore, there is evidence that even with mods including increased power the car can be tracked without overheating. I've been doing track days for a very long time. I've seen a lot of drivers do mods to improve consistency and longevity in the absence of data... and sometimes to their detriment. The point I'm making is that honda did a good job, and any changes to the cooling systems should be highly data driven. Vendors make a lot of wonderful parts that make our cars better. They also make a lot of parts we don't actually need.

Questions...
Can we confrim the coolant temp that triggers the "engine too hot" warning light? 125c?

Can we confirm if anyone has hit limp mode due to high temps?

Does anyone have the data for the OE tune files that would show timing retardation vs ECT (and whatever else it tracks against)?

Is there any objective third party testing for any of the aftermarket cooling solutions?

Dude just do what you are comfortable with. If you don’t agree with us that the car overheats in stock form then that is your opinion.

I really don’t feel like hunting through hours of data.

Also if you really go through Misha’s Youtube and Dream’s car. They did have overheating issues and they upgraded cooling system and did a Oil cooler.

 

[keller]

Edit: (I see from the other post the heater doesn’t have a valve in our cars.)

Yes. That's why people connect their secondary radiators in series with that branch. Even that mishimoto one taps in that path.

Tube diameters are a good indicator of expected flow rate for each branch. But tubes themselves aren't really a restriction compared to the heat exchanges on the same lines (or lack of!). For instance, we believe the coolant line inside the turbo to be pretty much restriction free. So it should present a high coolant flow even though the tubing diameter isn't large. And this coolant is going back into the engine hotter than when it left. A friend plugged this line and saw immediate improvements (I can't recall numbers). Was it because more water was redirected to the radiator? Or because that heat was being transferred to the oil instead?

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