🔴💊 Engine Oil Red Pill Thread: Only Post If You Have UOA - Official Honda Civic Type R K20C1 Engine Oil Analysis

[Ktrw]

I thought the root cause was a serious mechanical flaw according to latest studies of the L87 Engine failures. The oil was not the issue - Right? In general, yes thicker oil may provide better protection - depends on the oil - but as we saw in the previous results - it depends on the formulation - and use case. Let's get precise data. Still in search for the best oil. Keep the data coming.

Yes as I said the oil viscosity is insufficient for the surface finish of the crankshaft, so their band aid fix is a higher viscosity. The root cause was crankshafts that were slightly out of tolerance in dimensions and surface finish but GM determined that 0W-40 would alleviate the problem for effected engines that haven't failed yet, which is a band aid fix. The oil was not the root cause, however, it shows you how thin the margin of success is for a manufacturer recommended specification. 600,000 effected vehicles costing the company billions od dollars, which by their own "fix" potentially could have been avoided with their 0W-40 recommendation that they use for other v8s with similar specs.

The K20C engines have higher viscosity recommendations in other countries, so the decision to use 0W-20 is for fuel economy and or emissions, much like GMs decision to use 0W-20 in the L87 when they have other very similar engines that use 0W-40 in the US. Funny how now that 600,000 engines are effected, they recommend 0W-40 but only for those still running basically. Now that they've "fixed" the problem they're saying 0W-20 is fine moving forward. Or you could run a lighter thicker oil, which is in spec for other lower volume vehicles because CAFE, and give yourself some safety margin lol.

I'm all for getting data, and this GM disaster has about 600,000 good data points that costed a few billion dollars.

 

[johnloov]

Yes as I said the oil viscosity is insufficient for the surface finish of the crankshaft, so their band aid fix is a higher viscosity. The root cause was crankshafts that were slightly out of tolerance in dimensions and surface finish but GM determined that 0W-40 would alleviate the problem for effected engines that haven't failed yet, which is a band aid fix. The oil was not the root cause, however, it shows you how thin the margin of success is for a manufacturer recommended specification. 600,000 effected vehicles costing the company billions od dollars, which by their own "fix" potentially could have been avoided with their 0W-40 recommendation that they use for other v8s with similar specs.

The K20C engines have higher viscosity recommendations in other countries, so the decision to use 0W-20 is for fuel economy and or emissions, much like GMs decision to use 0W-20 in the L87 when they have other very similar engines that use 0W-40 in the US. Funny how now that 600,000 engines are effected, they recommend 0W-40 but only for those still running basically. Now that they've "fixed" the problem they're saying 0W-20 is fine moving forward. Or you could run a lighter thicker oil, which is in spec for other lower volume vehicles because CAFE, and give yourself some safety margin lol.

I'm all for getting data, and this GM disaster has about 600,000 good data points that costed a few billion dollars.

Just going off the data I have from Blackstone, if I was doing damage with that baseline honda 0w20 would it not show up on the oil report?

So far my 5 ppm aluminum is one of the lowest recorded in this thread. Does that mean it’s not protecting the engine well in track use?

 

[Ktrw]

Just going off the data I have from Blackstone, if I was doing damage with that baseline honda 0w20 would it not show up on the oil report?

So far my 5 ppm aluminum is one of the lowest recorded in this thread. Does that mean it’s not protecting the engine well in track use?

No I would say in your case it's fine because you're doing oil analysis with your track days included, but I still think it's needlessly risky compared to just running a slightly thicker oil.

Some folks with L87s sent in UOAs to Lake Speed Jr and had good and bad results but apparently there was someone that still had an engine failure after a good UOA. Lake said it is likely that the person used their vehicle for towing uphill or something demanding after the UOA which was a behavior not included beforehand and the crank touched down on the bearings.

K20Cs are stout and I haven't really seen any wide spread issue similar to this so perhaps our engines are actually up to the task with proper surface finishes, etc. With a bunch of V8s failing, the G16 in the GR Corolla having some odd issues seemingly somewhat related to oil viscosity in some cases, and the FA24 having oiling issues I'm just seeing lots of reasons to be cautious if you want your engine to last a long time.

 

[johnloov]

No I would say in your case it's fine because you're doing oil analysis with your track days included, but I still think it's needlessly risky compared to just running a slightly thicker oil.

Some folks with L87s sent in UOAs to Lake Speed Jr and had good and bad results but apparently there was someone that still had an engine failure after a good UOA. Lake said it is likely that the person used their vehicle for towing uphill or something demanding after the UOA which was a behavior not included beforehand and the crank touched down on the bearings.

K20Cs are stout and I haven't really seen any wide spread issue similar to this so perhaps our engines are actually up to the task with proper surface finishes, etc. With a bunch of V8s failing, the G16 in the GR Corolla having some odd issues seemingly somewhat related to oil viscosity in some cases, and the FA24 having oiling issues I'm just seeing lots of reasons to be cautious if you want your engine to last a long time.

Great, thank you.

Maybe my next baseline test to keep this experiment as tight as possible is to run a Honda Ultimate 5w30 and see what happens. Theoretically, this should perform better given that it should be equal standards and formulation, but a thicker version of the same oil.

I guess as an engineer and scientist, I’m always very cautious to just say run a thicker oil because a lot of oils are made completely different for different types of motors and some with higher. Molly content can easily accelerate carbon buildup in this direct injection engine, which doesn’t have any port injection.

I’m making a very big ass assumption or maybe it’s small that Honda the largest engine manufacture in the world must know something about oil formulation with their honda engines, but I could be wrong. Lake speed junior for some reason sticks with Toyota formulation in his Toyotas.

My friends Motul 8100 Power 5w30 with 5,000 miles did extremely well, heavy track car, with no moly, and some other 5w30s like Motul 300v and Valvoline extended lost grade fast! Just an observation, let me know your guys thoughts.

 

[cryptolime]

Great, thank you.

Maybe my next baseline test to keep this experiment as tight as possible is to run a Honda Ultimate 5w30 and see what happens. Theoretically, this should perform better given that it should be equal standards and formulation, but a thicker version of the same oil.

I guess as an engineer and scientist, I’m always very cautious to just say run a thicker oil because a lot of oils are made completely different for different types of motors and some with higher. Molly content can easily accelerate carbon buildup in this direct injection engine, which doesn’t have any port injection.

I’m making a very big ass assumption or maybe it’s small that Honda the largest engine manufacture in the world must know something about oil formulation with their honda engines, but I could be wrong. Lake speed junior for some reason sticks with Toyota formulation in his Toyotas.

My friends Motul 8100 Power 5w30 with 5,000 miles did extremely well, heavy track car, with no moly, and some other 5w30s like Motul 300v and Valvoline extended lost grade fast! Just an observation, let me know your guys thoughts.

i thought Honda Ultimate only came in 0w20. Only weight I've ever seen. But I'm definitely interested in trying it if I can get it in 0w or 5w/30

 

[jtlctr]

One thing I’m wondering about is how much variation occurs between different labs. I have a link somewhere, which I’ll dig up later, to a whole bunch of VOAs from BITOG. With the same oil tested between Blackstone and others, Blackstone more often than not as showing a lower viscosity than other labs.

 

[Ktrw]

One thing I’m wondering about is how much variation occurs between different labs. I have a link somewhere, which I’ll dig up later, to a whole bunch of VOAs from BITOG. With the same oil tested between Blackstone and others, Blackstone more often than not as showing a lower viscosity than other labs.

I also notice that WAY more often than not when I see a UOA result, Blackstone shows very little to no fuel dilution which I think is the opposite of accurate for many vehicles. Kinda funny seeing a decent amount of relatively low mile samples with very low viscosity and "negligible" fuel dilution in modern DI only engines.

 

[Ktrw]

Great, thank you.

Maybe my next baseline test to keep this experiment as tight as possible is to run a Honda Ultimate 5w30 and see what happens. Theoretically, this should perform better given that it should be equal standards and formulation, but a thicker version of the same oil.

I guess as an engineer and scientist, I’m always very cautious to just say run a thicker oil because a lot of oils are made completely different for different types of motors and some with higher. Molly content can easily accelerate carbon buildup in this direct injection engine, which doesn’t have any port injection.

I’m making a very big ass assumption or maybe it’s small that Honda the largest engine manufacture in the world must know something about oil formulation with their honda engines, but I could be wrong. Lake speed junior for some reason sticks with Toyota formulation in his Toyotas.

My friends Motul 8100 Power 5w30 with 5,000 miles did extremely well, heavy track car, with no moly, and some other 5w30s like Motul 300v and Valvoline extended lost grade fast! Just an observation, let me know your guys thoughts.

I get what you're saying about matching an oil to a specific engine, and I think that makes sense. However, when I look at the additive package for Honda oils, I just see a normal API SP package for the normal off-the-shelf stuff, and an outdated high moly package for the Type 2.0 stuff. I'd actually probably rather have the API SP formulation over the 2.0 package because you just don't need all the Calcium in a T-GDI engine. The newer Toyota formulations are way more impressive imo. They have high moly, but a reasonable amount of detergent, so it seems obvious they did this for excellent wear protection while keeping everything else in balance. Lake Speed has mentioned he found synergistic combinations of moly and ZDDP when he was formulating race oils, and the Toyota stuff seemed to be applying the same concept.

Just ordered another UOA kit so hopefully I can send that off early next week and get some results back for Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-30. Trying to think about what other oils I'm curious about in our engines. Considering doing something boutique like Driven DI30, but maybe I'll run something else as I'm not sure yet.

 

[cryptolime]

I get what you're saying about matching an oil to a specific engine, and I think that makes sense. However, when I look at the additive package for Honda oils, I just see a normal API SP package for the normal off-the-shelf stuff, and an outdated high moly package for the Type 2.0 stuff. I'd actually probably rather have the API SP formulation over the 2.0 package because you just don't need all the Calcium in a T-GDI engine. The newer Toyota formulations are way more impressive imo. They have high moly, but a reasonable amount of detergent, so it seems obvious they did this for excellent wear protection while keeping everything else in balance. Lake Speed has mentioned he found synergistic combinations of moly and ZDDP when he was formulating race oils, and the Toyota stuff seemed to be applying the same concept.

Just ordered another UOA kit so hopefully I can send that off early next week and get some results back for Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-30. Trying to think about what other oils I'm curious about in our engines. Considering doing something boutique like Driven DI30, but maybe I'll run something else as I'm not sure yet.

try some HPL oil. real good stuff.

 

[johnloov]

Looks like pennzoil ultra platinum seems to be excellent stuff.
Will be great to get more data on it both 0w20 and 5w30

 

[cryptolime]

i tried Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w-30 in my Si and felt great at first but i was getting knock control spikes while cruising below 3k RPM. Drained it and filled with Mobil 1 EP 0w20 and the knock control spikes disappeared.

sorry i don't have more data, but thought it might be relevant.

 

[jtlctr]

i tried Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w-30 in my Si and felt great at first but i was getting knock control spikes while cruising below 3k RPM. Drained it and filled with Mobil 1 EP 0w20 and the knock control spikes disappeared.

sorry i don't have more data, but thought it might be relevant.

Wow! That's a little sketchy!

 

[Ktrw]

Got my 5W-30 Pennzoil Ultra Platinum result back, and I'm happy with the wear results since they're still coming down nicely from break in. The viscosity did shear out of 30 grade, though with minimal fuel dilution. Funny enough since it ended life at a 20 grade I feel good about running this in the colder months, but I'm thinking about trying 0W-40 next year when it's hot again.

My average wear rate of the primary metals of concern is approximately 40% lower than that of my last sample. I am currently at about 6500 miles on the engine. (Note the mileage on the report is for the sample, not the engine)

My brother has a 2025 GR Corolla with 5,800 miles, and we have very similar fuel dilution, viscosity, oxidation, and wear rate. It's interesting that compared to Lake Speed Jr., his Porsche running 5W-30 for 4k miles still had a viscosity of 10.2 @ 100C, compared to our 8.7/8.8, and fuel dilution is seemingly not the problem. I guess these engines mechanically shear the oil more or something, since I would expect to see the oxidation value sky rocket if the turbocharger was cooking the oil more than his boxster. His oxidation value at 4k miles was 14.0, just like ours though.

 

[johnloov]

Excellent, data.

Interesting results. I'm currently at 5-6ppm Aluminum as a baseline with the Honda Ultimate 0W-20, wondering is it maybe because I changed it more often originally, and that flushed out the break in wear metals faster?

So far it seems the Motul API SP oils from the data show to hold grade the best. My friend Eric, with a heavily tracked Type R, and daily, uses Motul 8100 Power 5w-30 and he's at 5-6ppm Aluminum also and it had excellent sheer stability, and he ran it for 5,000 miles between oil changes. California car, and it does have dual engine oil coolers. The Motul 8100 Power 5w-30 chemistry is also interesting as it has almost, if any Moly.

Need to look in deeper, verify the numbers again. Very interesting data thank you.

 

[Ktrw]

Excellent, data.

Interesting results. I'm currently at 5-6ppm Aluminum as a baseline with the Honda Ultimate 0W-20, wondering is it maybe because I changed it more often originally, and that flushed out the break in wear metals faster?

So far it seems the Motul API SP oils from the data show to hold grade the best. My friend Eric, with a heavily tracked Type R, and daily, uses Motul 8100 Power 5w-30 and he's at 5-6ppm Aluminum also and it had excellent sheer stability, and he ran it for 5,000 miles between oil changes. California car, and it does have dual engine oil coolers. The Motul 8100 Power 5w-30 chemistry is also interesting as it has almost, if any Moly.

Need to look in deeper, verify the numbers again. Very interesting data thank you.

Yeah I think because you were at your 4th oil change at about ~5800 miles you flushed more of the remaining wear metals. Your results at 3482 miles showed more metal per 1k miles than my last sample at 3361 miles. It kinda makes me wish I had just done a few more even shorter OCIs just to get past this period of flushing things out.

Pretty interested in the 8100 Power oil but dang that is quite a bit more expensive at ~$80 per 5L. I guess if I want to consider something at a boutique price that is maybe the next option aside from HPL or Driven. Motul 300V seems great for track use but the 8100 Power is probably more ideal for street cars that you can track.

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