🔴💊 Engine Oil Red Pill Thread: Only Post If You Have UOA - Official Honda Civic Type R K20C1 Engine Oil Analysis

[johnloov]

Yeah I think because you were at your 4th oil change at about ~5800 miles you flushed more of the remaining wear metals. Your results at 3482 miles showed more metal per 1k miles than my last sample at 3361 miles. It kinda makes me wish I had just done a few more even shorter OCIs just to get past this period of flushing things out.

Pretty interested in the 8100 Power oil but dang that is quite a bit more expensive at ~$80 per 5L. I guess if I want to consider something at a boutique price that is maybe the next option aside from HPL or Driven. Motul 300V seems great for track use but the 8100 Power is probably more ideal for street cars that you can track.

Great feedback, thank you - curious the PUP 0W-20 you ran, in your opinion - how did it compare to the Honda 0W-20?

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[Ktrw]

Two factors jumped out at me regarding the results for those two. The first is that PUP 0W-20 stayed in 20 grade range at 7.5 cst@100C and the Honda Type 2.0 had sheared down into a 16 grade oil at 6.3 cst. The second is that the Honda oil had ~1800ppm calcium, which is unnecessarily high for our engines concerning the effect on LSPI.

The Honda oil had a lot of moly and some boron, which I like to see a good amount of, but the viscosity and calcium issue make it an inferior oil for our engines imo.

The car ran fine with both and there wasn't really anything noticeable day to day between the two as neither had issues other than the results.

 

[johnloov]

Excellent - it's true the PUP 0W-20 starts about 8.8 CST with the virgin oil sample. Looks like they all sheer down at 1-2k miles of track use ~ 1 CST

 

[johnloov]

0W-20 vs 5W-30 on Track – Real World FL5 Data
There’s always debate about whether to stick with Honda’s recommended 0W-20 or go thicker with a 5W-30 for track use. We do know generally a 5w-30 can provide more protection, if it's the right formulation, but not always according to Lake Speed Junior who analyzes 1000's of oils. After testing and comparing notes with other drivers, here’s what I’ve seen:

Heat & Viscosity

• Thicker oil (like 5W-30) seems to retain more heat. Several people have noticed their cars actually ran hotter on track after switching away from 0W-20.
• It also takes longer to warm up, which isn’t ideal for those who mainly drive short trips. This can accelerate oil shear and reduce protection sooner.
• Journalist Zygrene and my buddy Eric (running dual intercoolers) both confirmed their cars ran hotter on 5W-30, and they eventually needed hardware upgrades to manage temps.

Track Data with Honda 0W-20 Ultimate

• Personally, I’ve never had overheating issues running 20-minute full-send sessions on Honda’s 0W-20.
• Before a track session, I’ll run the heater, set it to max a/c off, recirculating on ( avoid brake dust into vents ) which drops coolant temps by ~3–5°F, but even without it the temps stay stable. I usually have it set to zero fan, and then push fan on during a session if temps get high, and sometimes forget to hit the fan on button and it seems to still be working as heat does come into the cabin.
• Jason from WOT reviewed my water temperature logs and track logs — he confirmed the stock car runs very healthy on 0W-20 at both Laguna Seca and COTA (one of the hottest, hardest tracks). He said look at the water temps, that's accurate, and it looks very very good.

My Recorded Temps (FL5 CTR, Stock Cooling, Honda 0W-20 Ultimate):

• Water Temp (max): 221°F
• Oil Temp (max): 257°F (ECU calculated, but consistent)

Takeaway

• With Honda 0W-20, the FL5 is running cool and stable in stock form, even on tough tracks.
• What’s universally agreed on: the most important factor is frequent oil changes. Best practice is around 2,000 miles / every 2–3 track days API SP OIl's. That’s proven to work very well.
• Oils can sheer faster also when they run too hot.
• I’m curious to see just how much hotter the stock setup runs with 5W-30 — but so far, 0W-20 has given me the best balance of temps and reliability.
  
  Let's bust this myth with data
  Does anyone have their Log R Water temperature data on stock car running 0W-20 vs 5w-30?

 

[iforgettopee]

Here's my oil analysis:
- first test is oem Honda fill - driven about 1000 miles and drained for fresh oil ahead of my first track day
- second test is Mobil 1 5w30 with about 1100 miles mixed driving and 1 track day (Streets of Willow) - I would consider the track day to be a conservative/gentle track day since it was the cars first outing.
I was not surprised to see them say the M1 5w30 sheered to "5w20" with only one track day. It was a relatively hot track day at around 90 degrees, in Southern California.

I filled with Pennzoil 5w40 ultra platinum euro and have done a hot buttonwillow track day (100 degrees ambient) - will drain this weekend and send it out for testing.
Next I am filling with liqui moly 5w30 (green bottle). Based on what I've seen here, no reason to do 5w40.
I use OEM honda blue oil filters.

My car does not have an oil cooler yet. Still stock radiator also. I open the stock hood vent fully on track days and I have the WOT cooling tray - was able to do about 5-6 laps before temps got really high during the 100 degree day.

This thread has been really educational and I've learned a lot from all of you already. Cheers!

 

[AspecR]

Does anyone have thoughts on Mugen actually recommending 0w-40 oil? Particularly Motul MS-P 0w-40, its not available in the US at the moment,(from the basic searches I’ve done at least) I’m assuming the Motul 8100x 0w-40 would be US equivalent. It’s not a very common grade but I found it interesting that they would recommend a relatively obscure grade(see translation when you click the post below) since we now have evidence that under heavy use current oils tend to sheer down a grade in the K20C.
Anyone with some insight please chime in, I’m sure the class would greatly appreciate it.

 

[johnloov]

Here's my oil analysis:
- first test is oem Honda fill - driven about 1000 miles and drained for fresh oil ahead of my first track day
- second test is Mobil 1 5w30 with about 1100 miles mixed driving and 1 track day (Streets of Willow) - I would consider the track day to be a conservative/gentle track day since it was the cars first outing.
I was not surprised to see them say the M1 5w30 sheered to "5w20" with only one track day. It was a relatively hot track day at around 90 degrees, in Southern California.

I filled with Pennzoil 5w40 ultra platinum euro and have done a hot buttonwillow track day (100 degrees ambient) - will drain this weekend and send it out for testing.
Next I am filling with liquid moly 5w30 (green bottle). Based on what I've seen here, no reason to do 5w40.
I use OEM honda blue oil filters.

My car does not have an oil cooler yet. Still stock radiator also. I open the stock hood vent fully on track days and I have the WOT cooling tray - was able to do about 5-6 laps before temps got really high during the 100 degree day.

This thread has been really educational and I've learned a lot from all of you already. Cheers!

Excellent - Did you Run Log R - do have the Log R data? - water temps when you ran that oil on track, that would be excellent to understand what temps you are hitting with thicker oils on stock car! Many thanks! Keep the data coming!

 

[Xmetal]

Does anyone have thoughts on Mugen actually recommending 0w-40 oil? Particularly Motul MS-P 0w-40, its not available in the US at the moment,(from the basic searches I’ve done at least) I’m assuming the Motul 8100x 0w-40 would be US equivalent. It’s not a very common grade but I found it interesting that they would recommend a relatively obscure grade(see translation when you click the post below) since we now have evidence that under heavy use current oils tend to sheer down a grade in the K20C.
Anyone with some insight please chime in, I’m sure the class would greatly appreciate it.

All oil will sheer down a grade or two in all engines even under normal use. So, just start with a grade higher or just change your oil more frequently.

When I was extensively doing analysis on my BMW Z4MCoupe, I found that all 10W60 (no matter brands) will eventually sheer down to a 40 within 2000-3000 street driven miles! I've tried the BMW OE Castrol 10W60 (went through several generations of TWS formulations in 15 years that I've own that car), Redline, LiquiMoly, etc. - They all eventually sheer down to a 40 grade.

I've just completed my 1st break-in oil analysis on the FL5 and the oil appeared to sheer down to 16 within 1000 easy street driven miles. Since the FL5 isn't known for having abnormal wear issue (as opposed to the BMW S54 having bearing issues), I don't think I will be doing any more extensive analysis on the CTR

 

[AspecR]

All oil will sheer down a grade or two in all engines even under normal use. So, just start with a grade higher or just change your oil more frequently.

When I was extensively doing analysis on my BMW Z4MCoupe, I found that all 10W60 (no matter brands) will eventually sheer down to a 40 within 2000-3000 street driven miles! I've tried the BMW OE Castrol 10W60 (went through several generations of TWS formulations in 15 years that I've own that car), Redline, LiquiMoly, etc. - They all eventually sheer down to a 40 grade.

I've just completed my 1st break-in oil analysis on the FL5 and the oil appeared to sheer down to 16 within 1000 easy street driven miles. Since the FL5 isn't known for having abnormal wear issue (as opposed to the BMW S54 having bearing issues), I don't think I will be doing any more extensive analysis on the CTR

I know all oils sheer down eventually, just seems a bit premature on the FL5 to me. This could just be paranoia but for peace of mind that's why I'm switching to Redline 5w-30 at my next oil change.

I was just wondering why Mugen would recommend 0W-40 which is relatively obscure for the K20C as opposed to 5W-30 which comes up the most in conversation.

 

[johnloov]

Watch out with redline 5w-30 - it's not formulated to API SP specs - no LSPI protection for direct injection - only redline 0w-20 ( thickest 0W20 available at 9cst at 100c ) and 0w-30 is API SP formulated - check the stats - I talked to redline - they didn't have an API SP spec 5w-30 yet.

I've very interested in the 0w20 redline, as it's at the highest CST for a 0W-20 and it theoretically should run cooler with the PAO Ester blend, and it last longer vs a pure race oil like Motul 300V - stays in grade way better. Motul Power 8100 maybe compatible to the Redline. It was proven to stay in grade longer and had very good results from the lab reports.

 

[iforgettopee]

Excellent - Did you Run Log R - do have the Log R data? - water temps when you ran that oil on track, that would be excellent to understand what temps you are hitting with thicker oils on stock car! Many thanks! Keep the data coming!

I'm not sure if I do, sadly. Unless it logged automatically - I'll double check if it's still saved in the car.

With PUP 5w40 euro in the car, I don't recall letting water temps go above 250 - water temps recovered pretty fast - when I saw water/oil drop down to ~220ish and I'd send it for another lap.
When "oil temp" got to ~ 275 degrees I would let off for cool down lap - it was "oil temp" that made me want to give it a cool down before water temp

Here's a couple of laps during the hottest part of the day where you can see temps in view:
ambient 100
"oil temp" 275
water temp 240

 

[johnloov]

The highest water temperature I logged was 221°F — you hit 240°F? Was that while running Mobil 1 5W-30?

From what I understand, oil temperature readings can be misleading. The computer’s flow estimator often gets confused with thicker oil, and I’ve seen some reports of readings as high as 300°F. One thing I noticed, though, was after doing several oil changes with 0W-20, once the break-in oil was fully flushed out, my temps actually dropped.

We do know that thicker oil = more friction, so there’s a balance to strike. Interestingly, going thicker also showed a measurable drop on the dyno — about 3–5 horsepower. Not huge, but still noticeable.

 

[iforgettopee]

The highest water temperature I logged was 221°F — you hit 240°F? Was that while running Mobil 1 5W-30?

From what I understand, oil temperature readings can be misleading. The computer’s flow estimator often gets confused with thicker oil, and I’ve seen some reports of readings as high as 300°F. One thing I noticed, though, was after doing several oil changes with 0W-20, once the break-in oil was fully flushed out, my temps actually dropped.

We do know that thicker oil = more friction, so there’s a balance to strike. Interestingly, going thicker also showed a measurable drop on the dyno — about 3–5 horsepower. Not huge, but still noticeable.

it was with PUP 5w40
It went up to 240 water / 275 oil

yep I understand LogR oil temp is a calculated temp - I hope to install an oil temp sensor along with oil coolers in the future

from everything I've seen in this thread, it seems clear that 5w40 isn't necessary... I may still stick with a 5w30 for my own peace of mind
Your cooler temps with 0w20 is also really interesting... it makes me tempted to try a 5w20 in the future

 

[johnloov]

This is great data - let's keep it coming ! Much appreciated !

 

[AspecR]

Watch out with redline 5w-30 - it's not formulated to API SP specs - no LSPI protection for direct injection - only redline 0w-20 ( thickest 0W20 available at 9cst at 100c ) and 0w-30 is API SP formulated - check the stats - I talked to redline - they didn't have an API SP spec 5w-30 yet.

I've very interested in the 0w20 redline, as it's at the highest CST for a 0W-20 and it theoretically should run cooler with the PAO Ester blend, and it last longer vs a pure race oil like Motul 300V - stays in grade way better. Motul Power 8100 maybe compatible to the Redline. It was proven to stay in grade longer and had very good results from the lab reports.

Any thoughts on Mugeen recommending Motul 0W-40, the brand is irrelevant mostly interested in why they chose grade more than anything else.