Pedal dance or no pedal dance

[MooMoo]

At Laguna Seca, I've tried every setting. Type R mode Nannies fully on - smokes the brakes - Pedal Dance, spun the car, car doesn't turn as well you are not taking advantage of active torque vectoring - Long press spun the car many times - saw many type R's crash - stories of those leaving in ambulances - And I then I started to use short press traction control and have found it to be the magic middle setting, where I can have fun, performed my fastest lap times, and it saved me a few times, and most recently at COTA in Austin Texas, and yes it was sad to see another Type R, mostly likely with long press, smash into a wall during a session. Short press, I was absolutely ripping it, felt safe, and locked in.

Be safe fellas - you can replace the brake pads - but you can't replace your life

If this chart is correct, short press is the same as traction ON unless you re going under 31mph so basically you might as well press +R and leave it be (which is what I do, car still feels great but you can really tell the difference of turning it full off, the car feels much better but comes with more consequences).

Traction control can absolutely save you but it also gives you a false sense of safety, you can stuff it easily with TC on as well,.

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[johnloov]

If this chart is correct, short press is the same as traction ON unless you re going under 31mph so basically you might as well press +R and leave it be (which is what I do, car still feels great but you can really tell the difference of turning it full off, the car feels much better but comes with more consequences).

Traction control can absolutely save you but it also gives you a false sense of safety, you can stuff it easily with TC on as well,.

Good point - hope I'm not dreaming - but for sure Type R mode + short press for sure did give me much more play - I was toggling it during driving also on track mid track - on cota once - I really over cooked it in a turn going 60 and it put me into 4 wheel drift - which full on never did. I'm very happy with that setting. ) Also noticed it's not chewing up and overheating my tires as much also.

ps.. I was a total idiot when I first started tracking the car - I thought it was manly only to drive with all the gimmicks off - save the brakes I thought - then after a few spins, close calls, watching cars flip - wrecks right in front of me - I realized... Hey.. I'm just here to have fun and drive home in one piece. Fck the brakes, just change the pads, rotors, Castrol SRF - enjoy it. Many have also commented, like points by patrol - some of the fastest times they've had were with traction control on. Worth watching his videos, especially him and Jason - Crash therapy.

I'm very happy with the car - with my wussy half press traction control setting )

#1 Fellas and Gals - Be SAFE - You can improve your lap times, by improving your lines and braking points vs turning off traction control

Enjoy your Type R - Spectacular machine

 

[hotgrilleceleste]

Why are people crashing? Lift off oversteer?

 

[spectre186]

I’m surprised how much oversteer I’ve gotten with long press while in a steady state turn, where I increase the steering angle, and you’d expect understeer, but instead it drags the rear brakes and you get yourself in a slide real quick.

I’m going to do a pedal dance next event, I don’t like how it drags the brakes and causes oversteer in situations you wouldn’t normally expect in a traditional setup.

I’ve accidentally done a Scandinavian flick on an early event that had a left followed by a quick right. That transition with a quick lift from 100% to 50% got myself into a fun slide! That was long press too.

 

[hotgrilleceleste]

Having raced a FWD car in the past, unexpected application of the brakes in a corner sounds dangerous. You want to rotate the car, if at all, going into the corner only, then accelerate out to bring the back into line by shifting weight onto the rear tires. I’m trying to understand why people are crashing these with all the driving aids off but not with them on?

 

[johnloov]

Why are people crashing? Lift off oversteer?

When you drive at the edge - sht happens - tires get greasy, grease on track, etc.. it happens when you're driving at the edge, even to the best drivers

 

[PointByPatrol]

Having raced a FWD car in the past, unexpected application of the brakes in a corner sounds dangerous. You want to rotate the car, if at all, going into the corner only, then accelerate out to bring the back into line by shifting weight onto the rear tires. I’m trying to understand why people are crashing these with all the driving aids off but not with them on?

I suspect trail braking technique is to blame here. At my home track I use +R with long press, and there is only one corner where I feel the car step in to assist, and it's applying some additional brake force to the inner-most front caliper to help the car turn in sharper. I've never felt like it was going to cause me to lose control, but actually is beneficial. My foot is still slightly on the brakes mid corner when this happens. I'd imagine if someone was coasting through the corner, and the inner-most front caliper bit down, that it could certainly cause an undesired effect.

 

[iforgettopee]

+1 to what pointbypatrol said: with the driver aids on, at no point does it feel like the car will lose control, it feels more like a faint nudge to help you initiate the car into rotation - it's still on you the driver to follow through with making the car rotate as much as needed to complete the corner - you just don't have to do anything fancy to start the process.

If you're not driving the car the car properly, the car won't rotate by itself. It just anticipating what you're trying to do, and making it easier for you. Also why it feels weird for some, because the car thinks you're trying to rotate the car when you're not - and you end up fighting the help it's giving you.

 

[Xian]

I’m surprised how much oversteer I’ve gotten with long press while in a steady state turn, where I increase the steering angle, and you’d expect understeer, but instead it drags the rear brakes and you get yourself in a slide real quick.

I’m going to do a pedal dance next event, I don’t like how it drags the brakes and causes oversteer in situations you wouldn’t normally expect in a traditional setup.

I’ve accidentally done a Scandinavian flick on an early event that had a left followed by a quick right. That transition with a quick lift from 100% to 50% got myself into a fun slide! That was long press too.

Are you sure that you’re not adding steering angle, which slows the car (slightly), which the. transfers load to the front and loosens the rear?

I’ll readily admit that there are certainly better drivers than me out there but I’m pretty quick/consistent and have never felt what you’re describing. IME, the FL5 drives more or less like any other well-balanced FWD platform… which is: not much in the way of steady state understeer when the tires are cool/happy. Yeah, It’ll tuck the nose with an aggressive throttle lift OR at full throttle at low speeds but it doesn’t turn when I’m not expecting it.

 

[spectre186]

Are you sure that you’re not adding steering angle, which slows the car (slightly), which the. transfers load to the front and loosens the rear?

I’ll readily admit that there are certainly better drivers than me out there but I’m pretty quick/consistent and have never felt what you’re describing. IME, the FL5 drives more or less like any other well-balanced FWD platform… which is: not much in the way of steady state understeer when the tires are cool/happy. Yeah, It’ll tuck the nose with an aggressive throttle lift OR at full throttle at low speeds but it doesn’t turn when I’m not expecting it.

You know what, I looked back at the video, and from what I can tell, my right foot does move over the brake pedal, as I turn in, and this is a point where I'm transitioning from 100% throttle to lifting off for the turn. I think throttle lift, plus maybe a dab of brake on turn in caused the oversteer. Video attached for those interested. Slide occurs around the 22 second mark. 40F ambient temps, so pretty chilly.

 

[iforgettopee]

You know what, I looked back at the video, and from what I can tell, my right foot does move over the brake pedal, as I turn in, and this is a point where I'm transitioning from 100% throttle to lifting off for the turn. I think throttle lift, plus maybe a dab of brake on turn in caused the oversteer. Video attached for those interested. Slide occurs around the 22 second mark. 40F ambient temps, so pretty chilly.

From what I saw in your video, I think you'd still get the same oversteer if you pedal danced and had everything turned off.
I'm not an autox-er so I won't pretend to know how to improve your setup in this situation, but my gut says maybe lower rear tire pressure and/or some rear toe-in could help?

at 40F ambient, it was prob tough to get temp in the rear tires and just getting the rear tires warmed up could be all you need

 

[Xian]

IMO, that’s not a setup or car issue… looked more like a slightly bumpy surface combined with turning+throttle lift. Could for sure be exacerbated by cold tires or other variables.

 

[Hailw00d]

I use the pedal dance because it seems more predictable. I've tried +R a few times on track and I don't like the way the car wants to keep doing things when I want it to be steady state. I adjust the balance with rear bar and/or inflation pressure. Except on super cold tires and being ham-fisted on an out lap, I've never come close to spinning the car.

I still need to play around with it more at autocross where I think the extra rotation would be helpful, but for track I prefer physics to electronics.

 

[J1Avs]

There's no right answer here. Experiment with the different modes and see what works best for you and your driving style.

Some also resort to pedal dance simply to get out of +R suspension, because of surface. It all really depends on a number of factors.

Personally, I like Long Hold +R -- I find it rotates on entry nicely, while not roasting the inside tire as much on exit. With that said, for my other local track, I have to pedal dance in individual to soften the dampers because there are a few excessively bumpy areas that makes the car a bit unstable.

 

[EJHonda]

At my recent track day at Lime Rock Park, I never got to drive in the rain, so I didn't bother playing with long push and drove three sessions with the pedal dance in place. We got shut down for 1.5 hrs late in the day due to lightning, and I took the opportunity to put my car on the trailer for a quicker start home as I had to be on the road by 5:30am the next day for another motorsports event. I talked to another CTR owner at the track who I've driven with as a co-driver in some enduro races, and I know as an excellent driver, and he agreed with me that the pedal dance seems to give the best pure performance at this track; he mentioned he didn't like the nudges the long press results in. I've been driving for 19 years with no nannies, so I may just be used to it. Likewise, with some patience, you'd probably get used to the long press nudges.

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