Camber Plates with springs

[MooMoo]

I have read a bunch of stuff on camber plates and seem to see a consensus that they don't work with springs, they are really developed to work with coilovers.

There seems to be 2 options, ballade sports and hard race, they look similar. I saw that they got the ballad sports to work with some lowering springs (spoon, eibach) since they are not as wide as stock and others, seems ike some springs still hit something and make noise. Hard race I am not really sure what works or what does not. I messaged hard race USA and they said they were developed for the stock springs, then I messaged garage immi and they said they don't recommend because the spring might hit the firewall. I trust garage immi more actually lol, at least vs someone at hard race that works customer service, his answer did not inspire confidence lol.

I am looking to hear if yall have experience with camber plates on either stock springs or lowering springs, specially H&Rs since that is what I will be installing. I think if they work on stock they will work on lowering springs since it seems stock springs are the widest.

I know about camber ball joints but I prefer camber plates for a few reason and would love to install those if possible. Car will be used on track so if you used them on track even better.

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[Evox787]

Following this thread! This is good information to have. Also, I don’t know if you, @MooMoo, think that using H&R springs along with a K-Tuned roll center adjuster would be a good addition for lowering the car? I’m planning to go with H&R as well, and at least on my past Hondas I did this, and whenever it was time to do an alignment, it wasn’t that big of a hassle. I’ve been looking, but none of the people who install lowering springs seem to use them. I think @PointByPatrol has a video installation on the EVS camber ones, but I don’t know if they serve the same purpose. But this is definitely an awesome tread to have options for camber adjustment and do it in a way that allows you to dial it in perfectly.

 

[MooMoo]

Following this thread! This is good information to have. Also, I don’t know if you, @MooMoo, think that using H&R springs along with a K-Tuned roll center adjuster would be a good addition for lowering the car? I’m planning to go with H&R as well, and at least on my past Hondas I did this, and whenever it was time to do an alignment, it wasn’t that big of a hassle. I’ve been looking, but none of the people who install lowering springs seem to use them. I think @PointByPatrol has a video installation on the EVS camber ones, but I don’t know if they serve the same purpose. But this is definitely an awesome tread to have options for camber adjustment and do it in a way that allows you to dial it in perfectly.

I had camber plates on my last car (BMW M2), never even had heard of camber ball joints lol on the BMW world everyone uses camber plates, so much so that you have 10 options if not more, works well. I guess on this platform, fk8 included there is some issues with using camber plates with the stock shocks and springs. I also have posted on facebook groups, a few of them and so far what I have gathered is that Ballade Sports new camber plates will work with aftermarket springs but depending on the springs you have limited adjustability of camber, aka you might not be able to do the full range and only get to -2.8, some cases a bit less. The camber plates will work perfectly with coilover since coilover springs by design have a smaller diameter.
That said according to type R reviews guy, ballade is running these with swifts on their shop car with no issues, he has spoons and eibachs work as well. Not sure about H&R but they should be similar.

As far as ball joints that Point by Patrol has installed, and really most people install those, they seem to work well, Ben is fast as hell at VIR so the ball joints are not a problem. I got interested in maybe doing the camber plates after reading about scrub radius, there is a good thread here on the forum about this. Changing offset on the wheels and also through the ball joints changes the scrub radius, now am I going to notice this? who knows and as has been pointed out its all about compromises, more camber will increase contact patch but at the cost of changing scrub radius and loosing steering feel and more wheel hop, ect... I would just love to have the option to maybe maintain the geometry as much as I can.
Maybe its going to 19in wheels vs my 18s but I honestly prefer the way the car drives on the 19s (my 19s have 35 sidewall), just feels more direct and responsive to me and gives me more confidence. Maybe all this in my head.
Its nice to dial camber too vs the ball joints where you have 3 choices, no additional camber or have -3 or -4.

Hopefully someone here chimes in and I will update with anything else I find out.

I have some camber ball joints that I have been meaning to install but might try out these ballad plates. Btw I talked to garage immi a bit more (great people, appreciate their help) and they send me pictures and a message from their customer and with the hard race plates he could not dial much camber in as the springs (oem) would hit the firewall. So I think the hard race camber plates are a no go.

 

[Evox787]

I had camber plates on my last car (BMW M2), never even had heard of camber ball joints lol on the BMW world everyone uses camber plates, so much so that you have 10 options if not more, works well. I guess on this platform, fk8 included there is some issues with using camber plates with the stock shocks and springs. I also have posted on facebook groups, a few of them and so far what I have gathered is that Ballade Sports new camber plates will work with aftermarket springs but depending on the springs you have limited adjustability of camber, aka you might not be able to do the full range and only get to -2.8, some cases a bit less. The camber plates will work perfectly with coilover since coilover springs by design have a smaller diameter.
That said according to type R reviews guy, ballade is running these with swifts on their shop car with no issues, he has spoons and eibachs work as well. Not sure about H&R but they should be similar.

As far as ball joints that Point by Patrol has installed, and really most people install those, they seem to work well, Ben is fast as hell at VIR so the ball joints are not a problem. I got interested in maybe doing the camber plates after reading about scrub radius, there is a good thread here on the forum about this. Changing offset on the wheels and also through the ball joints changes the scrub radius, now am I going to notice this? who knows and as has been pointed out its all about compromises, more camber will increase contact patch but at the cost of changing scrub radius and loosing steering feel and more wheel hop, ect... I would just love to have the option to maybe maintain the geometry as much as I can.
Maybe its going to 19in wheels vs my 18s but I honestly prefer the way the car drives on the 19s (my 19s have 35 sidewall), just feels more direct and responsive to me and gives me more confidence. Maybe all this in my head.
Its nice to dial camber too vs the ball joints where you have 3 choices, no additional camber or have -3 or -4.

Hopefully someone here chimes in and I will update with anything else I find out.

I have some camber ball joints that I have been meaning to install but might try out these ballad plates. Btw I talked to garage immi a bit more (great people, appreciate their help) and they send me pictures and a message from their customer and with the hard race plates he could not dial much camber in as the springs (oem) would hit the firewall. So I think the hard race camber plates are a no go.

I will be keeping 19” wheels on my FL5 and will stick with the stock tire size, but I plan to change the offset. Like you said, I want to keep the car’s geometry as close to the stock numbers as possible. I probably won’t even notice any difference , but I just want to do it right. I don’t want to mess up anything on the car or affect the way it feels, but I’m definitely looking to do this upgrade the proper way.

This is the product I was talking about:
https://k-tuned.com/products/roll-center-adjusters-civic-type-r-fk8?_pos=5&_sid=64727e971&_ss=r

 

[MooMoo]

I will be keeping 19” wheels on my FL5 and will stick with the stock tire size, but I plan to change the offset. Like you said, I want to keep the car’s geometry as close to the stock numbers as possible. I probably won’t even notice any difference , but I just want to do it right. I don’t want to mess up anything on the car or affect the way it feels, but I’m definitely looking to do this upgrade the proper way.

This is the product I was talking about:
https://k-tuned.com/products/roll-center-adjusters-civic-type-r-fk8?_pos=5&_sid=64727e971&_ss=r

Interesting and surprised first time I am hearing about this lol never heard of anyone running this with lowering springs. I honestly would be more concerned with a bigger drop but with the H&R springs the drop is so minimal.

 

[coolnick]

The problem with camber plates is when you push them inward to gain more negative camber you are also pushing the outside diameter of the spring closer to the inner fender liner and inside wall of the strut opening. Stock springs are wound with a really large outer diameter and so are H&R. If you push the outside of the spring closer to the inside to gain negative camber, you will make contact. I believe swift and others make springs with tighter outer diameter and those will work without making contact. When these different companies say their camber plates work with stock springs, they are referring to the upper spring perch, not the spring hitting the body of the car.

Regarding roll center, the ball joints used to adjust camber on these cars are not the lower ball joint that attaches to the outer part of the lower control arm, they are the large ball joint that connects the hub to the upright. This means they do not change roll center. They are also massive if you haven't seen them in person.

Like the OP and others I was in the same boat, I have H&R springs and wanted the easiest route to increased negative camber. Having had coilovers on other cars I wasn't necessarily looking for camber plates because I do not want to increase NVH on the car, but I did want the easy route. After reviewing the camber plates for this car and limited clearance inside the strut opening I decided on the evasive ball joints.

Disclaimer: I haven't installed any of it yet knowing that it is going to be a pita.

 

[MooMoo]

The problem with camber plates is when you push them inward to gain more negative camber you are also pushing the outside diameter of the spring closer to the inner fender liner and inside wall of the strut opening. Stock springs are wound with a really large outer diameter and so are H&R. If you push the outside of the spring closer to the inside to gain negative camber, you will make contact. I believe swift and others make springs with tighter outer diameter and those will work without making contact. When these different companies say their camber plates work with stock springs, they are referring to the upper spring perch, not the spring hitting the body of the car.

Regarding roll center, the ball joints used to adjust camber on these cars are not the lower ball joint that attaches to the outer part of the lower control arm, they are the large ball joint that connects the hub to the upright. This means they do not change roll center. They are also massive if you haven't seen them in person.

Like the OP and others I was in the same boat, I have H&R springs and wanted the easiest route to increased negative camber. Having had coilovers on other cars I wasn't necessarily looking for camber plates because I do not want to increase NVH on the car, but I did want the easy route. After reviewing the camber plates for this car and limited clearance inside the strut opening I decided on the evasive ball joints.

Disclaimer: I haven't installed any of it yet knowing that it is going to be a pita.

A few people have used the ballades and they are working for them, they have released a new part that goes on the top of the spring that helps and makes aftermarket spring work.
I know people are using them with swift, spoon and eibach. My only question is H&R because they do look similar in size with stock.

I took have ball joints as well but have not had the energy (or patience) to install. Ball Joints definitely will have more chance of not having any NVH than camber plates.

 

[Evox787]

Interesting and surprised first time I am hearing about this lol never heard of anyone running this with lowering springs. I honestly would be more concerned with a bigger drop but with the H&R springs the drop is so minimal.

Yeah, I just don’t want to deal with any hassle! I installed a strut bar, and I don’t know if it’s because of the car’s rigidity or something, but the car made a bunch of noises that basically made me think it was broken. I removed the strut bar, and 80% of the noises disappeared. I don’t know if it was the brand of the strut bar, the mounting location, or what. I think the brand is Sirimoto.

That’s part of the reason that, whenever it’s time for me to change tires, I’m going to do a full upgrade: 19x9.5 +45 with 265/30/19. I’m mainly trying to get rid of the reverse mount due to capable shops near me; that’s the only reason I’m going to do it. While I’m at it, I’m going to throw on the H&R springs, but I want to have the right camber, toe, caster, and the roll center ball joints. It’s probably overkill, but I just don’t want to deal with hassles that make me regret it.

 

[MooMoo]

Yeah, I just don’t want to deal with any hassle! I installed a strut bar, and I don’t know if it’s because of the car’s rigidity or something, but the car made a bunch of noises that basically made me think it was broken. I removed the strut bar, and 80% of the noises disappeared. I don’t know if it was the brand of the strut bar, the mounting location, or what. I think the brand is Sirimoto.

That’s part of the reason that, whenever it’s time for me to change tires, I’m going to do a full upgrade: 19x9.5 +45 with 265/30/19. I’m mainly trying to get rid of the reverse mount due to capable shops near me; that’s the only reason I’m going to do it. While I’m at it, I’m going to throw on the H&R springs, but I want to have the right camber, toe, caster, and the roll center ball joints. It’s probably overkill, but I just don’t want to deal with hassles that make me regret it.

Reverse mount is such a headache, well worth getting a set of regular mount wheels. I actually just put some tires on the stocks. My tire guy is great though but he said it was annoying I drive those wheels so little I think those tires will last past my car ownership.

 

[TW00Si]

Yeah, I just don’t want to deal with any hassle! I installed a strut bar, and I don’t know if it’s because of the car’s rigidity or something, but the car made a bunch of noises that basically made me think it was broken. I removed the strut bar, and 80% of the noises disappeared. I don’t know if it was the brand of the strut bar, the mounting location, or what. I think the brand is Sirimoto.

That’s part of the reason that, whenever it’s time for me to change tires, I’m going to do a full upgrade: 19x9.5 +45 with 265/30/19. I’m mainly trying to get rid of the reverse mount due to capable shops near me; that’s the only reason I’m going to do it. While I’m at it, I’m going to throw on the H&R springs, but I want to have the right camber, toe, caster, and the roll center ball joints. It’s probably overkill, but I just don’t want to deal with hassles that make me regret it.

You can get the OEM forged wheel or Mugen wheels. They’re in stock wheel specs.

 

[Evox787]

You can get the OEM forged wheel or Mugen wheels. They’re in stock wheel specs.

For the price of the Mugen, I’d rather get something else. The problem with my wheels is that I don’t like them, and I don’t necessarily want to upgrade them. It’s just that where I live, there aren’t any capable shops that can deal with reverse-mount wheels without damaging them. Ask me how I know that—after I bought a brand-new OEM wheel, it got scratched and damaged, and the shop didn’t want to replace it.

That’s the reason I’m looking into upgrading. The OEM forged wheels are a good option, but I don’t like how they look with the color of my car. Paying for a Mugen wheel and waiting three years to actually get it because of the whole JDM quality hype just isn’t worth it to me.

When I decide to commit to buying, I want something I can order today and receive within a week at most. To each their own, but I like to have options when it comes to doing any modifications on my car.

 

[optronix]

I'll be paying attention to this thread because I was just made aware of the camber plates for this platform recently- AFTER I installed the EVS ball joints.

I will comment that additional camber is a mandatory consideration if you plan on lowering the car and actually driving it in any serious fashion. If you're just going to put around on the street no worries, but I noticed severely annoying understeer immediately during my first autocross after installing Eibach Pro-Kit springs. I'm at -3.5 degrees in the front (no change to the rear post-drop, ~-2.5), and the car feels great now. Easy rotation during autocross, and extremely responsive turn-in noticeable while driving on the street.

That said, you might want to budget for additional tires if you go beyond -3 degrees *note this comment is made pending a toe check, but when it was aligned it was at 0 toe. But I have killed 3 tires since March.

 

[MooMoo]

I'll be paying attention to this thread because I was just made aware of the camber plates for this platform recently- AFTER I installed the EVS ball joints.

I will comment that additional camber is a mandatory consideration if you plan on lowering the car and actually driving it in any serious fashion. If you're just going to put around on the street no worries, but I noticed severely annoying understeer immediately during my first autocross after installing Eibach Pro-Kit springs. I'm at -3.5 degrees in the front (no change to the rear post-drop, ~-2.5), and the car feels great now. Easy rotation during autocross, and extremely responsive turn-in noticeable while driving on the street.

That said, you might want to budget for additional tires if you go beyond -3 degrees *note this comment is made pending a toe check, but when it was aligned it was at 0 toe. But I have killed 3 tires since March.

-3.5 might be what is killing your tires. I forget who it was but someone was going through tires when they went with almost -4 vs when he was at 2.8 or something.

Camber plates max would be -3.

 

[optronix]

-3.5 might be what is killing your tires. I forget who it was but someone was going through tires when they went with almost -4 vs when he was at 2.8 or something.

Camber plates max would be -3.

I really should follow through on my investigation before I start making claims, I'm doing the thing that annoys me on forums and speaking without clear evidence. So I'll clarify a bit.

I had the ball joints done in March, alignment came back with the aforementioned -3.5 front camber, -2.2-2.5 rear. Toe close to 0 but not exact; within a few hundredths either side; "in the green".

I put my OEM Michelins back on a couple weeks later, they were corded on the inside by August. However, there's more to that- they weren't corded per se when i put them on in March, but the did have 15k hard miles on them, including a track day and probably ~150 autocross runs. After I put them on I did another probably 30 runs before I noticed they were toast, and switched to Falken RT660+ in early August.

I just switched to all seasons and my right front Falken is toast; this was after 3 full events... but I'll also note that I did do 1 event and then had them rotated. The only true signs of significant "damage" is just to this one tire; the rest obviously show signs of wear but I'd say I've got another 60+ runs AT LEAST on them.

They were heat cycled and some preliminary feedback I've gotten on the Integra board suggests this tire has delaminated, but I need to get in to get the alignment checked because the toe could also be way off with all the runs I've done since it was aligned.

Here's the other front tire for reference; both these tires are positioned with the inside of tire at the right of the image:

So TL;DR, my story is little more than an arbitrary anecdote until I have more data.

 

[shijima_ending]

dumb question, but better safe than sorry - on stock suspension with the strut tower pins pulled, my speed shop was able to get -2.1 degrees of camber up front. should that still have clearance for any lowering spring setup?

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