🔴💊 Engine Oil Red Pill Thread: Only Post If You Have UOA - Official Honda Civic Type R K20C1 Engine Oil Analysis

[LogicalCC]

With all of these oil analysis' that have taken place, is anyone using a magnetic drain plug? - curious if that has potentially played a factor into some of the results that we are seeing. Also curious if the magnetic drain plug is worth it?

Awesome thread and content here. Thank you all!

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[Ktrw]

With all of these oil analysis' that have taken place, is anyone using a magnetic drain plug? - curious if that has potentially played a factor into some of the results that we are seeing. Also curious if the magnetic drain plug is worth it?

Awesome thread and content here. Thank you all!

I'm using a magnetic drain plug because anything you can see left on the plug are particles too big to see in oil analysis (this is according to Lake Speed Jr.). It gives you two methods to determine what's going on in your engine and get ahead of a wear/catastrophic problem.

I also have experience changing oil on a new forged internal 1JZ that had a magnetic drain plug on it. To cut a long story short, seeing a huge slug of material on the magnetic drain plug made me extremely concerned, but I trusted the engine builder through that and other tell-tale signs because he had built a ton of them for other folks making 1000+hp. He said he thought it was fine, it's just from break-in, etc.. I took the car to get a new clutch, and the shop discovered the engine was completely smoked with less than 1000 miles. I wasn't doing oil analysis on the car at the time, but it wouldn't really have mattered because the drain plug showed me what was happening.

I think it's worth using one.

 

[LogicalCC]

I'm using a magnetic drain plug because anything you can see left on the plug are particles too big to see in oil analysis (this is according to Lake Speed Jr.). It gives you two methods to determine what's going on in your engine and get ahead of a wear/catastrophic problem.

I also have experience changing oil on a new forged internal 1JZ that had a magnetic drain plug on it. To cut a long story short, seeing a huge slug of material on the magnetic drain plug made me extremely concerned, but I trusted the engine builder through that and other tell-tale signs because he had built a ton of them for other folks making 1000+hp. He said he thought it was fine, it's just from break-in, etc.. I took the car to get a new clutch, and the shop discovered the engine was completely smoked with less than 1000 miles. I wasn't doing oil analysis on the car at the time, but it wouldn't really have mattered because the drain plug showed me what was happening.

I think it's worth using one.

Got it. Thank you for the insightful feedback.

What magnetic drain plug are you using on the FL5?

 

[PNEUMA]

Got it. Thank you for the insightful feedback.

What magnetic drain plug are you using on the FL5?

I’m using the Votex magnetic plug in two of my Hondas. Strong neodymium rare earth magnet, quality 304 stainless steel that is CNC machined. It’s drilled for safety wire if required at a track. Made in the USA and supports a Wisconsin family business.
I think they’re superior to aluminum drain plugs with inferior magnets.

 

[Ktrw]

Got it. Thank you for the insightful feedback.

What magnetic drain plug are you using on the FL5?

I'm using the Bonoss titanium drain plug on my car and it seems to do the trick. I don't have an opinion on which ones are good or not, I just like their spacers and thought it was cool they offered a magnetic drain plug so I wanted to try it.

 

[LogicalCC]

Thank you both for the feedback.

 

[AspecR]

Got my Blackstone labs test kits today, waiting on the magnetic drain plugs to get in, then looking to get oil change done at the end of the month.

 

[johnloov]

Ok this got my attention! What the heck is this honda ultimate composed of? We know 80% of engine wear damage comes from cold starts.
Usually group 3 engine oils are no where as good as group 4/5’s in extreme cold tests at -50c-30c. They can’t flow as well. PAOs / Ester base oils like Amsoil-Signature Motul Redline have superior cold flow chemistry vs group 3s. So how the heck did Honda’s Ultimate perform similarly or superior to many, actually all group 3 engine oils in cold start. What the heck is in here. I think it’s time to send this to lake speed junior for virgin oil analysis testing and see what it’s made of. Pss. I’m not a honda oil fan boy - it’s the only baseline data I personally have - and my dealership hooked me up with free frequent changes to run the experiment.

Let’s keep it scientific

The best of the very best Group 3+’s which act like some PAO’s - even those don’t flow - it’s like frozen molasses at -50c!

What kind of base stock formulation does Honda Ultimate have that’s acting like a PAO - at -50c-30c cold flow testing — or is it a PAO mix or something different ? I‘ve heard the Toyota Full Synthetic is very good according to lakespeed junior but the Honda flowed much better at cold temps.

I’m currently overseas - It would be awesome if someone curious could send a virgin oil sample to lake speed junior diagnostic for a full spectrum analysis!

 

[Ktrw]

I could not care less how cold oil flows out of a container in relation to its performance in an engine. Cold flow is important but we have used oil analysis to tell us how the oil is performing on cold starts in our own cars, which is the use case and environment that matters.

Are we gonna start posting videos of ball bearing testers to show wear scars next? This feels like a regression to several years ago lol.

 

[johnloov]

I could not care less how cold oil flows out of a container in relation to its performance in an engine. Cold flow is important but we have used oil analysis to tell us how the oil is performing on cold starts in our own cars, which is the use case and environment that matters.

Are we gonna start posting videos of ball bearing testers to show wear scars next? This feels like a regression to several years ago lol.

You could be right.

As an engineer who loves to experiment, I’ve learned that most ideas fail until the data gets validated by an expert.

And you’re right — Lake Speed Jr. did show that the original ball bearing tests were flawed.

This current experiment is just about validating observational cold-flow data at –30 °C to –50 °C.
I’ve already reached out to Lake Speed Jr. at Speed Diagnostics — he’s out this week but will respond soon. Let’s see what the expert says.

I’m still fascinated by why it flows better and what the base-stock composition really is.
Is there an additive package that makes it behave like a PAO under extreme cold-flow conditions?

Ultimately, this is just about understanding the science behind those cold-flow videos — even if, like the bearing test, they turn out to mean nothing in real-world performance.

So here’s the open question:

A) Is Honda just rebranding a generic oil that happens to meet their spec?
B) Or is Honda actually telling the truth — and this is a specially formulated "superior synthetic base stock", genuinely tested and engineered by Honda R&D?

Curious to hear what you all think or know scientifically.

 

[sackofcheese]

You could be right.

As an engineer who loves to experiment, I’ve learned that most ideas fail until the data gets validated by an expert.

And you’re right — Lake Speed Jr. did show that the original ball bearing tests were flawed.

This current experiment is just about validating observational cold-flow data at –30 °C to –50 °C.
I’ve already reached out to Lake Speed Jr. at Speed Diagnostics — he’s out this week but will respond soon. Let’s see what the expert says.

I’m still fascinated by why it flows better and what the base-stock composition really is.
Is there an additive package that makes it behave like a PAO under extreme cold-flow conditions?

Ultimately, this is just about understanding the science behind those cold-flow videos — even if, like the bearing test, they turn out to mean nothing in real-world performance.

So here’s the open question:

A) Is Honda just rebranding a generic oil that happens to meet their spec?
B) Or is Honda actually telling the truth — and this is a specially formulated "superior synthetic base stock", genuinely tested and engineered by Honda R&D?

Curious to hear what you all think or know scientifically.

I'd wager Honda didn't actually do any of the engineering on it. Instead had whoever the supplier is make them an oil based on their wants/specs. Similarly to how the CTRs get a Honda Spec PS4S tire.

 

[Ktrw]

I'd wager Honda didn't actually do any of the engineering on it. Instead had whoever the supplier is make them an oil based on their wants/specs. Similarly to how the CTRs get a Honda Spec PS4S tire.

Yep, Honda does not make their own oil. I'm not aware of any big car manufacturers that make their own oil since they can just have someone supply a base oil and additive package to their specifications. Toyota certainly doesn't make their own oil but their spec of mobil1 is different from mobil1's normal stuff.

 

[johnloov]

1) Factory Fill from Japan is made by Idemitsu

2) Honda Genuine “Ultimate Full Synthetic” is made by Phillips 66 Lubricants (formerly ConocoPhillips) for the American Honda in the U.S.

According to Lake Speed Jr., most oil manufacturers work with largely the same base chemistries and additive technologies, tailoring their formulations to meet each customer’s specific performance requirements.

https://www.msds.com/msds/18832660/...ll-synthetic-motor-oil?utm_source=chatgpt.com

 

[johnloov]

Yep, Honda does not make their own oil. I'm not aware of any big car manufacturers that make their own oil since they can just have someone supply a base oil and additive package to their specifications. Toyota certainly doesn't make their own oil but their spec of mobil1 is different from mobil1's normal stuff.

Ok Fellas got some great news and feedback from Lake Speed Junior.

I was right from all the Dyno testing they run - the 0W-20 runs cooler.
I was wrong about Honda Ultimate possibly containing a PAO

1) Honda engine Oil is a Group 3 based product

2) Running a 0W-20 does let the engine run cooler. Our data—and the engine-dyno work—show that running 0W-20 reduces operating temperatures, and you get 4-5 more HP. Less friction. My track logs (water temps) and friends who switched to 5W-30 all saw immediate increases in water and oil temps—so that myth looks busted. Also Lakespeed Junior commented in his ball bearing test that higher viscosity typically increases oil consumption.

3) VOA properties are not an absolute predictor of oil performance - More moly, calcium, etc. doesn't mean better performance. He proved that in his ball bearing tests.

I followed up with some more questions regarding the applications of 2-3 track days and 2500 miles, what is best - a API SP/SQ engine oil or Motul 300V Race oil.

 

[johnloov]

Okay—quick follow-up that confirms what we discussed: judge the oil by the data, not the logo.

Recap

1. Honda OEM oil appears to be Group III and is performing very well
2. 0W-20 is running cooler than 5W-30 in the engine—especially helpful on a stock FL5 (no oil cooler, stock radiator, etc.). All Lakespeed Junior's Dyno runs and our track usage temp data also proved this conclusively.
3. Brands don’t matter—data does. That’s exactly how he answered when I asked about Motul 300V

His response:

-------------------------------------------------------------

John,

The used oil analysis data you shared looked great. I would not get sucked into the marketing around the other oils. Just go by the used oil data.


How would you rate my reply?
Great Okay Not Good

--
Lake Speed Jr.
[email protected]
{#HS:3102716462-18691#}

-------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Lake,

Last question - the Billion dollar question.

Is this OEM Group 3 ( or is it a Group 3+ ? ) engine oil doing a good job protecting my engine?

For the application of 2-3 track days 2500 miles total.

Is it better to:

1) Use an API SP/SQ engine oil 0W-20 - based on these used engine oil analysis - am I still good with running this Honda spec OEM engine oil for 2-3 track days and 2500 miles or another API SP/SQ engine oil?

or Run

2) A race oil like motul 300v 0W-20 or 5w-30 ( PAO runs 10-15% degrees cooler than group 3 ) - the data we collected shows Motul 300V degrades so fast after one day at track, and it doesn't look safe to drive it for 2500 miles.

Keep up the great work - as an engineer I'm super fascinated with the myth's of engine oil. Engine oils Seems like the most contentious religion in motorsports.
Kind regards,

On Mon, Oct 13, 2025 at 11:36 AM CDT, SPEEDiagnostix <[email protected]> wrote:

John,

I apologize for the delayed reply. The SDS sheet for that product indicates it is a Group III based product, which makes sense because Conoco-Phillips (66) produces Group III base oils (see attahced).

Your experience with the 0W-20 running cooler than the 5W-30 correlates with all my experience dyno testing engines and using different viscosity oils.

The overall results you are seeing is further proof that VOA "properties" are not an absolute predictor of oil performance. More is not always better.

--
Lake Speed Jr.
[email protected]

wrote:

Here was the latest oil analysis - I sent the older one from before

On Thu, Oct 9, 2025 at 1:00 AM CDT, John Dogru

As an engineer we are still fascinated by why it flows better and what the base-stock composition really is.
Is there an additive package that makes it behave like a PAO under extreme cold-flow conditions?

Ultimately, this is just about understanding the science behind those cold-flow videos - even if, like the bearing test, they turn out to mean nothing in real-world performance.

So here's the open question:

A) Is Honda just rebranding a generic oil that happens to meet their spec?
B) Or is Honda actually telling the truth - and this is a specially formulated synthetic base stock, genuinely engineered by Honda R&D?

Curious to know if Lakespeed has data and knows what is in this base stock. Is it really special?

On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 8:23 AM CDT, John wrote:

Also I noticed after many flushes of the high content, Molly break in oil was flushed out. My engine temperatures went significantly down 15 to 20°F and you can see with this Dyno testing. It was producing more power and had less friction. I'll be upfront with my goals: 1) Maximize OEM Operational Efficiency == Horsepower 2) Optimal OEM Cooling - As designed by Honda 3) Maximize Minimal Engine Wear I'm only using Honda OEM Ultimate Full Synthetic as a base line for my experiment, before moving onto other oils. I'll be the first to admit what the data shows. Now one thing to notice is, this was Factory fill 0W-20 Honda Oil test below, which has a lot more moly, is an engine break mix. You can see that from my data in the beginning of this thread. Honda Ultimate seems to be a bit less friction, as the break in oil was removed, oil change after oil change. If the engine labs results look excellent. I will not change it, until I hit a consistent PPM level. I did notice both water temps and estimate oil temps go down. I could feel the engine getting cool faster after 20 min sessions were completed. You don't have to believe me, just look at the results on a dyno below, and make your own conclusions. It's about a ~5HP difference. Predicting Power Loss for 5W-40: 5W-40 is even thicker than 5W-30, especially at high temps. Assuming a linear or slightly exponential degradationin average power:

• Estimate a further drop of 1.5 to 2.5 kWin average power compared to 5W-30.
• This gives an estimated average powerof around 203.5 to 204.5 kW atw.
• Converted to horsepower at the wheels: 204 kW×1.341= 273.6 hp atw204 kW×1.341= 273.6 hp atw

Compared to stock (211 kW best / ~280 hp), this is about a 6-7 hp potential loss on average using 5W-40. Am I crazy to be running this oil for racing )? The data I believe shows otherwise
On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 8:15 AM CDT, John > wrote:

This is also the Virgin oil sample of the the same Honda Ultimate Full Synthetic oil. My dealership has been so amazing in California to give me free oil changes as frequently as I want to run this experiment to test the Honda ultimate full synthetic 0W 20.

Would be great if Lake Speed Junior gets all this ! Thank you much. We are extremely curious in the Honda Civic Type R community.

What’s next

For my use case—2–3 track days per interval and ~2,500 miles between changes—I’m targeting the best API SP/SQ 0W-20. Right now the car is on an unknown cheap dealer-fill from a Honda dealership in Dallas. I’ll pull a sample and share results after three heavy track days, then try Pennzoil Ultra Platinum (Group III+ with a hint of ester) against Honda Ultimate. Upcoming events: G2 Motorsports Park and Oct 8–9 at COTA (Austin).

Community ask

Please keep posting your oil data (UOA/VOA) and engine setup details. If you’re running power adders, an oil cooler, upgraded radiator, etc., a 5W-30 may make sense—your data is especially valuable.

Golden rule

If longevity is the goal, use a good API SP/SQ fully synthetic, and flush contaminants regularly:

• Track use: change every 2–3 track days or ~2,500 miles (whichever comes first).
• Mostly street: 5,000 miles max.

So far, the evidence suggests most API SP/SQ full synthetics are very good—judge by the data, not the brand.