Active Dampers too stiff on FL5. Disabled with Damping Cancellation Kit

[dandaman15]

I think the problem with this is that the current programming isn;t linear as you show. When the car is being loaded up and hits an impact near the end of the damper stroke, the car really stiffens up.

So making a patch harness that just drops the current in a nominal fashion will still have this hump in the ends of the dyno.

We really need something like the DSC Controllers so we can fully adjust the dyno and correct this unpredictability within the damper stroke.

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[tezzasaurusrex]

I think the problem with this is that the current programming isn;t linear as you show. When the car is being loaded up and hits an impact near the end of the damper stroke, the car really stiffens up.

So making a patch harness that just drops the current in a nominal fashion will still have this hump in the ends of the dyno.

We really need something like the DSC Controllers so we can fully adjust the dyno and correct this unpredictability within the damper stroke.

Thats right - but if i can halve the current output going to the dampers by doubling the resistance in the circuit it *should* theoretically halve the damping rate. which should help tremendously. My concern is that increasing the resistance in the damping circuit may throw up a code in the ADS system. Won't know until I test it.

Unfortunately DSC have no plans on making a unit for the FK8/FL5 platform - I have already contacted them.

 

[urbo73]

Interesting. Is there more body roll and lean with the ADS module disconnected and the dampers fixed? I also wonder if the car was even tested and engineered to have the suspension play nicely without ADS. I get that it may feel better, but wondering what the effects are on the chassis.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

Interesting. Is there more body roll and lean with the ADS module disconnected and the dampers fixed? I also wonder if the car was even tested and engineered to have the suspension play nicely without ADS. I get that it may feel better, but wondering what the effects are on the chassis.

The stock spring rates are around 5kg/4.7kg front/rear respectively. This gives you a nice ride around town but is far too soft for any type of performance driving - so the dampers and ADS system is there to make up for the lack of spring rate to control the body roll and maintain suspension stroke under high G load.

So yes, by cancelling the system entirely you are running the risk of blowing through the available suspension stroke too quickly and bottoming out. You could compensate for this by increasing the spring rate - but then the damping rate may no longer match the spring rate which will might result in higher ride frequency than desired and the pogo effect is reintroduced.

I'm waiting on the Spoon springs to arrive which will increase the spring rate by 10% and experiment with circuit intervention of the ADS system. Failing that I think the solution is coilovers.

 

[urbo73]

The stock spring rates are around 5kg/4.7kg front/rear respectively. This gives you a nice ride around town but is far too soft for any type of performance driving - so the dampers and ADS system is there to make up for the lack of spring rate to control the body roll and maintain suspension stroke under high G load.

So yes, by cancelling the system entirely you are running the risk of blowing through the available suspension stroke too quickly and bottoming out. You could compensate for this by increasing the spring rate - but then the damping rate may no longer match the spring rate which will might result in higher ride frequency than desired and the pogo effect is reintroduced.

I'm waiting on the Spoon springs to arrive which will increase the spring rate by 10% and experiment with circuit intervention of the ADS system. Failing that I think the solution is coilovers.

I may try it just to see out of curiosity. But one would not be canceling the *entire* damper system - you are just making them passive/fixed instead of active. So they will obviously still absorb at whatever rate they operate when in a fixed state. And this is what I was asking. This is an unknown, and I'm not sure if Honda tested the car this way. When designing an adaptive damper, why test it in its fixed rate? Still, it could be stiff enough to prevent bottoming out, but I don't know.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

I may try it just to see out of curiosity. But one would not be canceling the *entire* damper system - you are just making them passive/fixed instead of active. So they will obviously still absorb at whatever rate they operate when in a fixed state. And this is what I was asking. This is an unknown, and I'm not sure if Honda tested the car this way. When designing an adaptive damper, why test it in its fixed rate? Still, it could be stiff enough to prevent bottoming out, but I don't know.

You asked if there will be more body roll with the ADS disconnected which I provided you the answer for. This is not an unknown since that is the entire design premise of any active suspension system - that it provides a softer ride over bumps but also maintains body control and sufficient suspension stroke under high load by controlling/increasing the damping rate under such loads.

It has been reported that without the ADS system the car exhibits a floating sensation which is symtomatic of a suspension system that is under dampened.

But good that you're keen to test, cause that's what we need, more willing heads to gather good data to push the platform. Would be keen to hear your thoughts on the system with it disconnected.

 

[urbo73]

I meant that Honda testing the car with fixed dampers is unknown. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I tried it today, as it's easy and straightforward to unplug and plug back in the ADS connector to the module. I found it very underdamped, almost like a base Civic, but unsuitable for this chassis and tires/level of grip. And this is just driving on backroads and some banked corners, on and off camber, at pretty fast speeds. The suspension was very unsettling and almost bottoming out at times. On track this setup will be worse. I can deal with the small bouncing of the ADS in all modes, we all agree it could be better, but this disabling of the ADS is pretty bad and will wear out the dampers fast too. I find it hard to believe anyone would opt for this, let alone recommend it.

Anyway, it was an interesting and quick experiment. I suspect those that don't like the harsh ride of the R (not the bouncing mentioned - just the stiffer setup) will initially prefer this, as it is softer and more compliant, but IMHO, that's not what this car was designed for - a glorified grocery getter driven at 5/10ths. Coming from M BMWs, for me, this is fine, and I suspect there will be some tunes to take care of the bouncing front down the road. Coilovers are an option, but that's a very complicated thing to get right and keep the OEM character of the car. Anyway, those are my thoughts. I do think the dampers are pretty aggressive, especially in +R, but I think this was quite intentional from Honda, knowing people would run stickier tires. I feel they just did what they wanted, which I kinda like from a philosophical point of view. Not just with the dampers, but the car in general. It's a very aggressive car, purpose-built, and that's what they wanted. Comfort? Get an Si.

 

[Noize]

I meant that Honda testing the car with fixed dampers is unknown. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I tried it today, as it's easy and straightforward to unplug and plug back in the ADS connector to the module. I found it very underdamped, almost like a base Civic, but unsuitable for this chassis and tires/level of grip. And this is just driving on backroads and some banked corners, on and off camber, at pretty fast speeds. The suspension was very unsettling and almost bottoming out at times. On track this setup will be worse. I can deal with the small bouncing of the ADS in all modes, we all agree it could be better, but this disabling of the ADS is pretty bad and will wear out the dampers fast too. I find it hard to believe anyone would opt for this, let alone recommend it.

Anyway, it was an interesting and quick experiment. I suspect those that don't like the harsh ride of the R (not the bouncing mentioned - just the stiffer setup) will initially prefer this, as it is softer and more compliant, but IMHO, that's not what this car was designed for - a glorified grocery getter driven at 5/10ths. Coming from M BMWs, for me, this is fine, and I suspect there will be some tunes to take care of the bouncing front down the road. Coilovers are an option, but that's a very complicated thing to get right and keep the OEM character of the car. Anyway, those are my thoughts. I do think the dampers are pretty aggressive, especially in +R, but I think this was quite intentional from Honda, knowing people would run stickier tires. I feel they just did what they wanted, which I kinda like from a philosophical point of view. Not just with the dampers, but the car in general. It's a very aggressive car, purpose-built, and that's what they wanted. Comfort? Get an Si.

This post is spot-on across the board! Don’t disable your active dampers, people.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

I meant that Honda testing the car with fixed dampers is unknown. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I tried it today, as it's easy and straightforward to unplug and plug back in the ADS connector to the module. I found it very underdamped, almost like a base Civic, but unsuitable for this chassis and tires/level of grip. And this is just driving on backroads and some banked corners, on and off camber, at pretty fast speeds. The suspension was very unsettling and almost bottoming out at times. On track this setup will be worse. I can deal with the small bouncing of the ADS in all modes, we all agree it could be better, but this disabling of the ADS is pretty bad and will wear out the dampers fast too. I find it hard to believe anyone would opt for this, let alone recommend it.

Thanks for testing this and sharing your experience. The results of which are as had I expected and I agree with you - its not an ideal solution to the problem.

 

[TheTopher]

Update - I'm going to have to agree with you guys on this after living with ADS disabled for a couple months and a track day. It felt pretty good in 20ºF weather on all-season tires but now that temps are up, the car is way too underdamped. Going to revert back for the summer

 

[jonnys_honda]

Update - I'm going to have to agree with you guys on this after living with ADS disabled for a couple months and a track day. It felt pretty good in 20ºF weather on all-season tires but now that temps are up, the car is way too underdamped. Going to revert back for the summer

Boy am I glad I skipped to the end for updates haha.

Thanks for providing feedback!

 

[Two Step Performance]

Boy am I glad I skipped to the end for updates haha.

Thanks for providing feedback!

Look who's back! Good to see you around.

 

[CTR]

Found the part number for the Integra Type S ADS module. Who wants to be the first to test swapping it out on their FL5?

39381-31M-A03
ADS UNIT (REWRITABLE)

The interesting thing is that both the Acura and Honda parts have "rewritable" in the part description. I wonder if this means they could be flashed by a tech at a dealership to different settings?

 

[keller]

Found the part number for the Integra Type S ADS module. Who wants to be the first to test swapping it out on their FL5?

39381-31M-A03
ADS UNIT (REWRITABLE)

The interesting thing is that both the Acura and Honda parts have "rewritable" in the part description. I wonder if this means they could be flashed by a tech at a dealership to different settings?

That's half the price of a non-LE FK8 part, that's awesome. Yes, most (if not all) ECUs in our cars are rewritable. In case Honda releases a TSB for this part, techs will be able to upgrade the firmware without replacing the hardware, but not tune it to different settings. At least for the FK8, there's no upgraded firmware for the ADS as of now.

 

[s2kdriver80]

Found the part number for the Integra Type S ADS module. Who wants to be the first to test swapping it out on their FL5?

39381-31M-A03
ADS UNIT (REWRITABLE)

The interesting thing is that both the Acura and Honda parts have "rewritable" in the part description. I wonder if this means they could be flashed by a tech at a dealership to different settings?

The FK8 had 3 part numbers for the ADS module... 17-19, 20-21, and LE. I too got no volunteers when I asked repeatedly on the boards if anyone was willing to try it on a base FK8, so I was the guinea pig lol, and have been running the LE ADS on my base 21 for over a year now. And now, FK8 owners can't get the LE ADS since too many people want them now and they're backordered lol.

Each of the 3 hardware components had identical subpart numbers etched into the metal, but the differences in programming gave them different top-level part numbers. I suppose if you knew the right people and had the proper tools, you can install another firmware with different programming on them, hence the "rewritable".

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