🔴💊 Engine Oil Red Pill Thread: Only Post If You Have UOA - Official Honda Civic Type R K20C1 Engine Oil Analysis

[zumbooruk]

Back to oil weight...

I did even more reading, specifically for the K20C1

Seems that this engine has issue with fuel dilution

Which means that 5W30 might be better than 0W20?

How quickly does a 0w20 dilutes to 16 weight oil?

How quickly does a 5W30 dilutes to 20 weight oil?

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[Ktrw]

Back to oil weight...

I did even more reading, specifically for the K20C1

Seems that this engine has issue with fuel dilution

Which means that 5W30 might be better than 0W20?

How quickly does a 0w20 dilutes to 16 weight oil?

How quickly does a 5W30 dilutes to 20 weight oil?

Depends entirely on climate, driving habits, oil formulation, etc. Starting your car up in 20F and letting it idle for 10 minutes will drastically increase your fuel dilution since the A/F will be rich and the ring seal will be poor.

Generally the K20C from what I've seen doesn't have particularly bad fuel dilution by percentage for a DI only engine. I think there is actually quite a bit of mechanical shearing occurring in these engines, and something like the G16 in the GR Corolla, because fuel dilution can be kept relatively low despite the UOA coming back with pretty low viscosities.

 

[Spart]

Which means that 5W30 might be better than 0W20?

Where you're located, I would not hesitate to run a 5W-30. No real need for 0W-anything in SoCal.

 

[johnloov]

Back to oil weight...

I did even more reading, specifically for the K20C1

Seems that this engine has issue with fuel dilution

Which means that 5W30 might be better than 0W20?

How quickly does a 0w20 dilutes to 16 weight oil?

How quickly does a 5W30 dilutes to 20 weight oil?

There are lot of factors and variables.

Application dictates formulation + oil change intervals.

All engines oils start to deteriorate and have contamination after 2000 to 2500 miles.

If you want your engine to last forever, 2-3 track days and 2000 miles seems to be the magic proven number with an api sp 0W-20 engineoil without increasing engine temps.

If you want to extend engine oil intervals 5000 miles and factor in fuel dilution, and don’t intend to track a stock engine ( no oil coolers ) than a 5w30 seems to be more ideal.

That’s what the data is showing so far validated also by many experts.

 

[zumbooruk]

There are lot of factors and variables.

Application dictates formulation + oil change intervals.

All engines oils start to deteriorate and have contamination after 2000 to 2500 miles.

If you want your engine to last forever, 2-3 track days and 2000 miles seems to be the magic proven number with an api sp 0W-20 engineoil without increasing engine temps.

If you want to extend engine oil intervals 5000 miles and factor in fuel dilution, and don’t intend to track a stock engine ( no oil coolers ) than a 5w30 seems to be more ideal.

That’s what the data is showing so far validated also by many experts.

Thank you!

I think I finally get it...

Since I do not track, and in So Cal, Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w30 at 4-5k miles


Now, what about filter? I've been using Fram for my 07 FA5 Si but I read that Fram was purchased by some company (no longer Honeywell), and quality has gone down, plastic parts, less/thinner media, etc.

 

[Rhorn]

Back to oil weight...

I did even more reading, specifically for the K20C1

Seems that this engine has issue with fuel dilution

Which means that 5W30 might be better than 0W20?

How quickly does a 0w20 dilutes to 16 weight oil?

How quickly does a 5W30 dilutes to 20 weight oil?

Where are you seeing the information that says this? Theres nothing I've seen that shows this. The 1.5L L15 that Honda uses had really bad issues with fuel dilution in earlier models when it first came out. Never seen that being a problem on the FK8s, it has been 10 years, any problems would be known by now, so I'm not convinced fuel dilution is a problem.

All of the small displacement turbo GDI engines have fuel dilution, theres an acceptable range and it will never be completely 0%, theres always some that will be in there. I dont remember the exact cause I think some of it is because of blowby and just the inherent design of these engines (they aren't simple push rod V8s and aren't design to last forever). They are also prone to LSPI (low speed pre-ignition). None of these are specific only to the K20C1, it applies to a bunch of other engines

This is why I said the formulation matters more than the oil weight. You want an oil that has al ow NOACK rating (low volatility, less likely to evaporate, so less dilution) with low SAPS (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus, Sulfur), low calcium and sodium. This formulation is specifically designed to reduce carbon deposits, blow by, fuel dilution and LSPI.

Just looking at 0W20 vs 5W30 has nothing to do with with these properties. Amsoil makes like 3 different 5W30 blends and they all have different formulas, the signature series is not a low SAPS oil, but their European line is, but has a lower HTHS despite them both being 5W30. Amsoil SS was fine for my Mustang GT350 but I realized it may not be the best for my CTR just because these engines are different.

You want an oil that has those properties on top of a higher HTHS rating. So you need to look deeper than just raw oil weight if you want to get the best oil. Because theres no standardized way to make oil, not all 0W20 and 5W30 oil are made equal. The Mobil 1 ESP 0W30 oil has a higher HTHS than the 5W30 despite the 5W30 being a thicker weight in theory.

 

[Spart]

Since I do not track, and in So Cal, Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w30 at 4-5k miles

Lake Speed Jr's recent 5W-30 test did not make PUP stand out to me at all.

It's a perfectly fine oil (it's being compared to a lot of good oils here, after all) but it just doesn't stand out.

It did poorly on the total wear metals count:

It did poorly on temperature:

Middle of the pack on the TEOST test to determine turbo deposits:

The PDSC test measures oxidation stability, higher number being better here, PUP again middle of the road:

Fairly decent (with a big asterisk, explained below) on the KRL shear test, which tests "High Temperature, High Shear" (aka HTHS)

I would caution that the above graph just shows a difference from the original viscosity after the KRL shear test, rather than the absolute values. If the oils all start out at different viscosities and then end up in the same place, the percent change is a bit meaningless if what matters to you is the ultimate, working viscosity. That's an important distinction because the initial viscosity of the oil doesn't matter all that much unless you are doing VERY frequent oil changes. You can see values from after the HTHS test in the raw data in this chart, in the 3rd and 6th columns:

As you can see, although the PUP had relatively little shear in this test, the ultimate viscosity after the KRL test still put it in the middle of the pack once the oil was subjected to stress. Realistically, the oils are much closer together in practice than the % change from the KRL test would suggest, and the PUP is in 5th when you look at the post-KRL 100°C viscosities, even though the percent change had it at 3rd.

I am most impressed by the LiquiMoly Molygen from the perspective of engine longevity in a daily driver here.

It was top of the pack on wear metals and turbo deposits, had the lowest temperature excluding the racing oil specifically designed to reduce temperature, had middle of the road oxidation stability and when looking at the post-KRL (HTHS) 100°C viscosity, it just barely exceeded the minimum viscosity for a 30 weight oil (9.29 vs 9.3)

If you're aware of the potential for that, and it isn't critical to your application (I don't think it is for ours when the car isn't being tracked, and they come with 0W-20 factory fill after all) then I really think the MolyGen showed out here and the PUP just showed up.

 

[PNEUMA]

I’m on my second fill of LM New Gen 0w-20 and noticed that the coolant temp according to the gauge panel, fell by 5°F in my car. That decrease started with the first time filling with it. I will continue with the LiquiMoly for my car.
I change my oil/filter often because I like spending money, and crawling under my car.

 

[Spart]

I’m on my second fill of LM New Gen 0w-20 and noticed that the coolant temp according to the gauge panel, fell by 5°F in my car. That decrease started with the first time filling with it. I will continue with the LiquiMoly for my car.
I change my oil/filter often because I like spending money, and crawling under my car.

Would be interesting to see a UOA of the 0W-20 and see where the viscosity lands.

The 5W-30 shearing out of grade very slightly isn't a big deal, but I would be worried if the 0W-20 sheared out of grade. In particular for the turbo, I ready somewhere that the manufacturer of the turbo recommends 5W-30 anyway.

 

[PNEUMA]

Would be interesting to see a UOA of the 0W-20 and see where the viscosity lands.

The 5W-30 shearing out of grade very slightly isn't a big deal, but I would be worried if the 0W-20 sheared out of grade. In particular for the turbo, I ready somewhere that the manufacturer of the turbo recommends 5W-30 anyway.

Maybe next fill I will purchase the 5w-30. I still have 5L of the 20, but could always use it in the Accord

 

[Spart]

Maybe next fill I will purchase the 5w-30. I still have 5L of the 20, but could always use it in the Accord

Honda obviously validated the use of 0W-20 on the turbo and you don't hear about them failing all the time, but it still freaks me out that their OEM might disagree.

 

[zumbooruk]

Where are you seeing the information that says this?

I read so many forums and discussion lately, but I believe this was from Bob is the oil guy site

 

[Spart]

I read so many forums and discussion lately, but I believe this was from Bob is the oil guy site

Fuel dilution is a weird one because some fuel will get into the oil every single time you cold start your engine. If you let it idle, it makes it worse.

Some of the more volatile fractions of gasoline (not all) will evaporate out once the engine gets hot, and the PCV system takes care of it. If you ever have catch cans, the oil in them will usually smell quite strongly of fuel.

This is why Blackstone's advice is to take a sample from a fully warmed up engine. It mixes the oil up so you're getting a representative sample, and it gets as much of the fuel out of it as possible. If you change the oil cold and not very mixed, you may not get a representative sample. But the problem remains that SOME fractions of the fuel will linger in the oil even when fully heated, and these fractions aren't great for the oil quality. The oil can tolerate a certain amount of this type of fuel dilution - all engines contaminate the oil with fuel to some degree.

If you're going to sample your oil to find out, I would suggest to just take the car for whatever your normal daily drive is before you change the oil. If that's two miles, or twenty, it'll give you an accurate idea of what your car is dealing with on a daily basis.

Also (as I'm sure you've heard over and over) Blackstone uses flashpoint to infer fuel dilution. Other labs use gas chromatography. If you're super worried about fuel dilution, don't use Blackstone to figure it out. I'm not that worried about it and I use Blackstone.

 

[johnloov]

Interesting... Does anyone know if the variable oil pump programming is different also on the Type R with those other countries recommending 5w-30 vs 0w-02?

 

[Spart]

Interesting... Does anyone know if the variable oil pump programming is different also on the Type R with those other countries recommending 5w-30 vs 0w-02?

Well considering there's no computer or "programming" talking to the K20C1/C8 oil pump and telling it what to do... I'm going to say no.

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