🔴💊 Engine Oil Red Pill Thread: Only Post If You Have UOA - Official Honda Civic Type R K20C1 Engine Oil Analysis

[Spart]

0W-20 vs 5W-30: why did Lake’s 7-year dataset show
slightly lower wear on 0W-20?

I don't doubt it, but in a data set of 7,000 oil samples things are going to be biased towards the lowest common denominator.

Is the lowest common denominator folks who take their cars to a race track and beat on them for 15-20 minutes at stretch? No, it's people who just use their car as an appliance. If you car calls for 0W-20 and you commute in it, you'll never see engine oil temperatures that make higher viscosity oils worthwhile.

For that vast majority of folks, the blend and add pack will matter more than whatever number comes after the W.

With 7,000 samples, the vast majority of people are going to be following a manufacturer recommendation. If one manufacturer recommends xW-20 across the board and another recommends xW-30 across the board, the differences you're seeing are more likely down to the difference between manufacturers/engines, not the difference between two oils.

If you have a 911 Turbo S that calls for 5W-40, you're not going to look at this data and say "well I guess most cars work fine on 0W-20, so I'll start putting that in my Porsche!" The context matters. Well, unless you're this guy.

Honda's own recommendations from the UK owner's manual explicitly endorse 5W-30 and 0W-30.

Use the thinnest oil that maintains hot-oil pressure for a full stint.

To me, this is exactly backwards. Use an oil that you know will maintain hot oil pressure for a full stint, don't risk it and find out while your brain is trying to keep up with the next braking zone.

There is so little downside to running a thicker oil on a car that's seeing track use. Err on the side of caution instead of trying to find the edge of what you can get away with, and hoping you don't fall off that edge.

Sponsored

 

[johnloov]

Thanks that's good feedback.

I can't find any examples of engine failures or high metal wear with frequent oil changes and tracking/running a quality Fully Synthetic OEM Spec 0W-20. I think this is the big assumption we are trying to bust.

I guess the million dollar question is, has anyone had any issues running 0W-20 and tracking the stock car hard?

It seems the common theme is - change your oil more frequently. 2500 miles if you want it to last forever with 2-3 track days, even with OEM Honda 0W-20, and 5w-30 works very well, if you are able to keep temps down with cooling additions.

Here is a guy with a 911 Turbo that's hitting close to 1 million miles, and changes his OEM spec 0W-40 Mobile 1 oil every 5000 miles religiously and drives it like crazy including many track days.



Let's keep posting the data to see what is best. Measure UOA + Track Water temps.

Thanks everyone. Keep the data coming

 

[Spart]

I guess the million dollar question is, has anyone had any issues running 0W-20 and tracking the stock car hard?

It's important to ask the counter-example: has anyone lost a bottom end running 5W-30 or 0W-30, where running 0W-20 would have prevented the issue from occurring?

 

[johnloov]

Haven’t seen that either, only overheating on stock car pulling timing on heavier oil is the only observable difference we’ve seen and 3-5hp difference in dyno.

 

[Lust]

On my old FK8 I ran strictly 0w-20 Motul 300v. Car was FBO, tuned, and had upgraded cooling. No issues with track and did numerous UOAs that came back with great results. Datalogs also showed appropriate oil pressures. I probably wouldn't feel comfortable with a lower quality oil and 0w-20 would probably shear at track temps.

 

[johnloov]

On my old FK8 I ran strictly 0w-20 Motul 300v. Car was FBO, tuned, and had upgraded cooling. No issues with track and did numerous UOAs that came back with great results. Datalogs also showed appropriate oil pressures. I probably wouldn't feel comfortable with a lower quality oil and 0w-20 would probably shear at track temps.

Excellent feedback. Curious how often - how many track days - how many miles total - did you run the same oil before changing it? Do you by chance have those UOA's - That data would be greatly appreciated for the community.

 

[Lust]

Excellent feedback. Curious how often - how many track days - how many miles total - did you run the same oil before changing it? Do you by chance have those UOA's - That data would be greatly appreciated for the community.

Everything has been documented here

https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/lusts-fk8-civic-type-r-track-street-build.38199/page-29

And videos of the car being pushed on track

 

[johnloov]

Everything has been documented here

https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/lusts-fk8-civic-type-r-track-street-build.38199/page-29

And videos of the car being pushed on track

That's pretty impressive data results considering you were modified, tracking the car that hard, and long oil change intervals! 8000-9000 miles oil change intervals is long! 10ppm aluminum over 9,593 miles is amazing! Also it looked like it stayed within grade extremely well. Interestingly, it stayed in grade way better than Motul 300V 5w30 UOA we looked at. And I'm wondering is it because the engine oil stayed cooler, so it didn't sheer.

One last question - Why did you choose to stay with 0W-20 when everyone is focused on moving up to 5w-30, 5w-40, 10w-30/40 etc? I assume there was a method to the madness.

Engine & Transmission:

• KTuner V1.2 tuned by Derek Robinson (Innovative Motor Works)
• RV6 Performance Catted Down Pipe ceramic coated and DEI Titanium wrapped
• RV6 Performance Front Pipe ceramic coated and DEI Titanium wrapped
• C&R/PWR 42mm Track Radiator
• C&R/PWR Intercooler
• Eventuri V2 Carbon Fiber Intake
• Eventuri Carbon Fiber Inlet Pipe
• Fujitsubo Authorized RM Titanium Exhaust
• HKS Oil Cooler
• PRL Charge Pipe Kit
• PTP Lava Turbo Blanket
• Hasport 62a Rear Motor Mount
• Radium Engineering PCV Catch Can
• Radium Engineering Coolant Reservoir Tank
• Radium Engineering 1.3bar Radiator Cap
• Revel VLS Oil Temperature Gauge
• Deatschwerks DW300c Fuel Pump
• Acuity Instruments Short Shifter
• Acuity Instruments Shifter Bushings
• Motul 300v 0w-20 Engine Oil
• Motul Gear 300 Transmission Fluid
• Modified OEM Clutch Master Cylinder by k20z3allmotor
• Modified OEM Grill by Stealth Labs

 

[Lust]

That's pretty impressive data results considering you were modified, tracking the car that hard, and long oil change intervals! 8000-9000 miles oil change intervals is long! 10ppm aluminum over 9,593 miles is amazing!

One last question - Why did you choose to stay with 0W-20 when everyone is focused on moving up to 5w-30, 5w-40, 10w-30/40 etc? I assume there was a method to the madness.

Engine & Transmission:

• KTuner V1.2 tuned by Derek Robinson (Innovative Motor Works)
• RV6 Performance Catted Down Pipe ceramic coated and DEI Titanium wrapped
• RV6 Performance Front Pipe ceramic coated and DEI Titanium wrapped
• C&R/PWR 42mm Track Radiator
• C&R/PWR Intercooler
• Eventuri V2 Carbon Fiber Intake
• Eventuri Carbon Fiber Inlet Pipe
• Fujitsubo Authorized RM Titanium Exhaust
• HKS Oil Cooler
• PRL Charge Pipe Kit
• PTP Lava Turbo Blanket
• Hasport 62a Rear Motor Mount
• Radium Engineering PCV Catch Can
• Radium Engineering Coolant Reservoir Tank
• Radium Engineering 1.3bar Radiator Cap
• Revel VLS Oil Temperature Gauge
• Deatschwerks DW300c Fuel Pump
• Acuity Instruments Short Shifter
• Acuity Instruments Shifter Bushings
• Motul 300v 0w-20 Engine Oil
• Motul Gear 300 Transmission Fluid
• Modified OEM Clutch Master Cylinder by k20z3allmotor
• Modified OEM Grill by Stealth Labs

I had great results with 0w-20 300v and really didn’t have a reason to switch. Great wear numbers and no pressure issues. I had confidence in 300v in that it wouldn’t shear under high load. For my FL5 I’ll be trying out 5w-30 300v though. For research purposes lol

 

[Spart]

That's pretty impressive data results considering you were modified, tracking the car that hard, and long oil change intervals!

Agreed.

Also, having an oil cooler can be literally just as good as going up in viscosity. Roughly speaking and all else being equal, for every 10°C of temperature you can reduce, it's equivalent to increasing your SAE viscosity by about 10.

So a 0W-20 operating at 80°C will idealistically have the same viscosity as a 0W-40 operating at 100°C.

Of course in the real world, SAE viscosity is actually a range, and even two different viscosity oils from the same lineup will have different VIIs and blends, and will age differently, so it's an imperfect rule of thumb.

 

[cryptolime]

That's pretty impressive data results considering you were modified, tracking the car that hard, and long oil change intervals! 8000-9000 miles oil change intervals is long! 10ppm aluminum over 9,593 miles is amazing! Also it looked like it stayed within grade extremely well. Interestingly, it stayed in grade way better than Motul 300V 5w30 UOA we looked at. And I'm wondering is it because the engine oil stayed cooler, so it didn't sheer.

One last question - Why did you choose to stay with 0W-20 when everyone is focused on moving up to 5w-30, 5w-40, 10w-30/40 etc? I assume there was a method to the madness.

Engine & Transmission:

• KTuner V1.2 tuned by Derek Robinson (Innovative Motor Works)
• RV6 Performance Catted Down Pipe ceramic coated and DEI Titanium wrapped
• RV6 Performance Front Pipe ceramic coated and DEI Titanium wrapped
• C&R/PWR 42mm Track Radiator
• C&R/PWR Intercooler
• Eventuri V2 Carbon Fiber Intake
• Eventuri Carbon Fiber Inlet Pipe
• Fujitsubo Authorized RM Titanium Exhaust
• HKS Oil Cooler
• PRL Charge Pipe Kit
• PTP Lava Turbo Blanket
• Hasport 62a Rear Motor Mount
• Radium Engineering PCV Catch Can
• Radium Engineering Coolant Reservoir Tank
• Radium Engineering 1.3bar Radiator Cap
• Revel VLS Oil Temperature Gauge
• Deatschwerks DW300c Fuel Pump
• Acuity Instruments Short Shifter
• Acuity Instruments Shifter Bushings
• Motul 300v 0w-20 Engine Oil
• Motul Gear 300 Transmission Fluid
• Modified OEM Clutch Master Cylinder by k20z3allmotor
• Modified OEM Grill by Stealth Labs

iron level is kinda high compared to other UOAs I've seen. also, what's up with the lower flashpoint compared to the previous samples?

 

[Spart]

iron level is kinda high compared to other UOAs I've seen. also, what's up with the lower flashpoint compared to the previous samples?

For the mileage and use, I'd be pretty happy with that.

Flashpoint on a Blackstone analysis can be strongly influenced by how the car was driven (and in what temperatures) immediately preceding the oil sample being taken.

I have noticed that on my UOAs, it will always be lower if I was idling the car to mix the oil up without taking it for a nice long drive to get the oil fully warm. And if I'm doing an oil change in the winter it's usually higher than in the summer because you have to work harder to get heat into the oil.

Heat in the oil is what helps get rid of the fuel contamination from a cold start by pushing it out through the PCV system.

 

[johnloov]

That’s true that iron is high
Probably changing it every 2500 miles would be perfect. Motul rep recommended 2-3 track days 2500 miles. I’m actually surprised why it lasted so long for a race oil and stayed in grade compared to the 5w30 300v samples someone else posted.

What was your max water temps while racing with this oil?

 

[Lust]

That’s true that iron is high
Probably changing it every 2500-5000 miles would be perfect. I’m actually surprised why it lasted so long for a race oil and stayed in grade compared to the 5w30 300v samples someone else posted.

What was your max water temps while racing with this oil?

I think coolant got hot a few times. Mid 230s. Looking back I’ll probably change my OCI to 5k miles. Back then I was really just trying to push how far the oil could go.

 

[iforgettopee]

Here's a UOA of Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w40 with one very hot track day - ambient temp was 101 degrees - I went with 5w40 with the expectation that it would sheer down from the heat... coolant temps touched 240 at least once, if not several times, and it was my signal to let the car cool off a bit.

but after having done a track day with liqui moly 5w30 I think there is a noticeable temperature difference - 5w40 runs hotter and recovers slower than 5w30
For my latest fill, I went with liqui moly 0w20 with a quart of 5w30 that I had leftover from the previous change.

The UOA saying the oil is thin for a 5w40 does not surprise me at all, but it was still in range for a 5w40

I look forward to posting the liqui moly 5w30 UOA next.

mods: no oil cooler - WOT cooling tray & spoon hood vent, factory rad & coolant tank, phearable tune, carbon turbo inlet, cat-back exhaust

first: honda factory fill
second: mobil1 5w30
third: PUP 5w40