Type R Track Times Pedal Dance vs. Type R+ Long Press and Experience

[RacingManiac]

FWIW I autoX the car with +R even with what I mentioned in your quote. I ran the car in pedal dance in the wet. With 200TW on autoX course in the dry the rear brake really doesn't make the car loose per se, but it does help turn in and also help powerdown on exit because the the car also still uses the front inside brake to help the mechanical LSD work better. But in the wet where you can't really commit to throttle the artificial yawing makes it pretty hard to be consistent.

For tracks I can see with the higher speed and momentum it might make the behavior more severe. Also people do mention the brakes can overheat more easily in +R mode.

Sponsored

 

[johnloov]

Would be good to get some more conclusive data on lap times fellas.

I just did again multiple stops - normal , type r, type r long press. pedal dance braking for sure feels sharper more natural.

So far some have said it’s 1-2 seconds faster with pedal dance.

My goal is to optimize the max performance settings on a fl5 type r stock with conclusive data. Only changes will be brake fluid. Stock pads stock tires. Alignment toe out, pins out, electronic traction settings.

I’m also getting data on honda oem oil lab reports.

Lets see what’s the best times on stock
Car. Max that out first, and get a conclusion on pedal dance track times.

Also curious @pointsbypatrol the last crash you had was that due to type r long press? When I see the topher the rear tail is super tail happy - “bonkers” all over the place - on type r long press vs pedal dance in a low traction situation

You hear him complain of more understeer with the pedal dance because he is at zero toe and the brakes are not turning car and the first reaction is to get a swaybar, but the actual best way to correct under steer is toe out which doesn’t seem like anyone’s trying. That’s what I’m going to prove or disprove. All the top racing experts have tow out even on mid engine cars and especially on front wheel drive cars it’s almost a must. What shocking to me is my car is not tram lining at all which a lot of cars do with tow out which means it’s stable. I’ll also update everyone on tire wear which I don’t really care about as long as I get max performance from stock form. Pedal dance + toe out the car feels unhindered.



Using brakes to turn a car - is not the way to go - that mean's it's not naturally aligned to turn in

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

@PointByPatrol @johnloov
Yo lads!

Yes, I drive exclusively in pedal dance as I don't want any assists except for ABS to be active in any of my cars. I however have never done a back to back lap time comparison between the modes, I just like what I like.

In regards to wheel alignments, I set every car I touch (both myself and all of my customers vehicles) between zero to +1mm total toe in on the front axle.
The rear I run +1mm total toe in.
Camber is set to the customer's driving ability, usually between -3 to -4° on track going cars. Rear about half of what the front camber is set to generally works well, there are some exceptions like mid engined cars that tend to like more rear camber as there's more latitudinal load transfer.

The reason I don't follow conventional wisdom in respect to front toe out is because of the following reasons:
1. Heat. Almost every production vehicle I've worked on exhibits a frontal toe out curve under bump travel, that means that when the front suspension compresses while braking, the front axle develops toe out. So if static toe out is set to say 1-2mm, then by the time the car is under full braking force, the toe out has actually reached 3-4mm. Which is likely too much, generating unnecessary slip angle on the tyres, and excessive heat. On a fwd car, on a dry track, heat in the front tyres is the absolute enemy. We want to reduce this as much as possible.
2. Ackerman angle, and optimum slip angle to generate maximum grip. So all production cars have something called Ackerman steering geometry. This is essentially the inside wheel turns more than the outside wheel at a given steering angle so that the differing turning arcs of the outside and inside wheels are followed. This eliminates or at least significantly reduces tyre scrub and provides smooth turning at low speeds. However, at higher speeds, we actually want the opposite effect (anti Ackerman). The reason is because under lateral load transfer, the optimum slip angle value of the outside tyre is greater than the inside tyre due to the load transfer. More static toe out means more effective Ackerman angle, which is not desired at high speeds. If you look at the front tyres of Formula cars during steering, you'll see that they actually have negative Ackerman engineered into the steering geo.
3. A lesser effect, but an effect nonetheless, aero. Toe out creates a larger frontal cd, hurting top speed on faster tracks. We want max speed, always..

So while yes, static toe out does provide a slightly bitier turn in motion as you allow the outside tyre a moment to receive load before generating thrust via tyre slip angle. The negatives everywhere else outweigh the positive. There are always other aspects to consider, but hopefully this explains why I never go for static front toe out. I'm sure one day I'll be proven wrong, but until that happens this is the way I'm doing it. My customer's and my lap times can do the talking ?

 

[PointByPatrol]

@PointByPatrol @johnloov
Yo lads! I set every car I touch (both myself and all of my customers vehicles) between zero to +1mm total toe in on the front axle.
The rear I run +1mm total toe in.
Camber is set to the customer's driving ability, usually between -3 to -4° on track going cars. Rear about half of what the front camber is set to generally works well, there are some exceptions like mid engined cars that tend to like more rear camber as there's more latitudinal load transfer.

The reason I don't follow conventional wisdom in respect to front toe out is because of the following reasons:
1. Heat. Almost every production vehicle I've worked on exhibits a frontal toe out curve under bump travel, that means that when the front suspension compresses while braking, the front axle develops toe out. So if static toe out is set to say 1-2mm, then by the time the car is under full braking force, the toe out has actually reached 3-4mm. Which is likely too much, generating unnecessary slip angle on the tyres, and excessive heat. On a fwd car, on a dry track, heat in the front tyres is the absolute enemy. We want to reduce this as much as possible.
2. Ackerman angle, and optimum slip angle to generate maximum grip. So all production cars have something called Ackerman steering geometry. This is essentially the inside wheel turns more than the outside wheel at a given steering angle so that the differing turning arcs of the outside and inside wheels are followed. This eliminates or at least significantly reduces tyre scrub and provides smooth turning at low speeds. However, at higher speeds, we actually want the opposite effect (anti Ackerman). The reason is because under lateral load transfer, the optimum slip angle value of the outside tyre is greater than the inside tyre due to the load transfer. More static toe out means more effective Ackerman angle, which is not desired at high speeds. If you look at the front tyres of Formula cars during steering, you'll see that they actually have negative Ackerman engineered into the steering geo.
3. A lesser effect, but an effect nonetheless, aero. Toe out creates a larger frontal cd, hurting top speed on faster tracks. We want max speed, always..

So while yes, static toe out does provide a slightly bitier turn in motion as you allow the outside tyre a moment to receive load before generating thrust via tyre slip angle. The negatives everywhere else outweigh the positive. There are always other aspects to consider, but hopefully this explains why I never go for static front toe out. I'm sure one day I'll be proven wrong, but until that happens this is the way I'm doing it. My customer's and my lap times can do the talking ?

See!!!! Told you guys this guy knows his stuff!!!

 

[BigBird]

There are many major issues with Traction Control in the Type R. For a OEM "Track Car" it's not very track friendly. It's hard to do back to back testing when you can't change settings on the fly

My major gripes

• Can't turn TC off while driving
• only one setting for individual mode
  • can't add TC off as part of it
• Pedal Dance is the only option when not using +R mode
• +R mode can not be custom set

Having an Elantra N before this car, all of these things were customizable and more. So, getting into the Honda felt like 2 steps back for track settings and infotainment.

 

[MooMoo]

There are many major issues with Traction Control in the Type R. For a OEM "Track Car" it's not very track friendly. It's hard to do back to back testing when you can't change settings on the fly

My major grips

• Can't turn TC off while driving
• only one setting for individual mode
  • can't add TC off as part of it
• Pedal Dance is the only option when not using +R mode
• +R mode can not be custom set

Having an Elantra N before this car, all of these things were customizable and more. So, getting into the Honda felt like 2 steps back for track settings and infotainment.

I agree, individual should be like M mode on bmw or N mode on hynday, should let you adjust everything exactly as you want, some things should not be exclusive to R.

So what I understand is that if you are not in R mode you can't fully take TC off? you can do pedal dance and disable VSA but TC is still somewhat on even with the long press?

 

[BigBird]

@PointByPatrol @johnloov

3. A lesser effect, but an effect nonetheless, aero. Toe out creates a larger frontal cd, hurting top speed on faster tracks. We want max speed, always..

I believe this also comes into play when using less offset than OEM, and pushing those wheels out

 

[BigBird]

I agree, individual should be like M mode on bmw or N mode on hynday, should let you adjust everything exactly as you want, some things should not be exclusive to R.

1) So what I understand is that if you are not in R mode you can't fully take TC off?

2)you can do pedal dance and disable VSA but TC is still somewhat on even with the long press?

1) Correct. Only with pedal dance
2)Pedal dance will disable all TC.
with long press, TC is still on but I believe to a lesser degree, and allows the front wheels to spin more. +R mode long press will disable TC, and you get to keep high speed cornering, but +R mode is usually not the fastest setting as it's over dampened

 

[MooMoo]

1) Correct. Only with pedal dance
2)Pedal dance will disable all TC.
with long press, TC is still on but I believe to a lesser degree, and allows the front wheels to spin more. +R mode long press will disable TC, and you get to keep high speed cornering, but +R mode is usually not the fastest setting as it's over dampened

ok makes sense, pedal dance at least will disable it all so all you need.
I have never done the pedal dance, just TC off on R mode and yeah car was a poggo stick lol

 

[BigBird]

ok makes sense, pedal dance at least will disable it all so all you need.
I have never done the pedal dance, just TC off on R mode and yeah car was a poggo stick lol

If you turn TC off in +R, then you ready for pedal dance.

Next time out, after you as a driver are warmed up, Try Individual with comfort shocks, and +R everything else and pedal dance.

 

[johnloov]

@PointByPatrol @johnloov
Yo lads!

Yes, I drive exclusively in pedal dance as I don't want any assists except for ABS to be active in any of my cars. I however have never done a back to back lap time comparison between the modes, I just like what I like.

In regards to wheel alignments, I set every car I touch (both myself and all of my customers vehicles) between zero to +1mm total toe in on the front axle.
The rear I run +1mm total toe in.
Camber is set to the customer's driving ability, usually between -3 to -4° on track going cars. Rear about half of what the front camber is set to generally works well, there are some exceptions like mid engined cars that tend to like more rear camber as there's more latitudinal load transfer.

The reason I don't follow conventional wisdom in respect to front toe out is because of the following reasons:
1. Heat. Almost every production vehicle I've worked on exhibits a frontal toe out curve under bump travel, that means that when the front suspension compresses while braking, the front axle develops toe out. So if static toe out is set to say 1-2mm, then by the time the car is under full braking force, the toe out has actually reached 3-4mm. Which is likely too much, generating unnecessary slip angle on the tyres, and excessive heat. On a fwd car, on a dry track, heat in the front tyres is the absolute enemy. We want to reduce this as much as possible.
2. Ackerman angle, and optimum slip angle to generate maximum grip. So all production cars have something called Ackerman steering geometry. This is essentially the inside wheel turns more than the outside wheel at a given steering angle so that the differing turning arcs of the outside and inside wheels are followed. This eliminates or at least significantly reduces tyre scrub and provides smooth turning at low speeds. However, at higher speeds, we actually want the opposite effect (anti Ackerman). The reason is because under lateral load transfer, the optimum slip angle value of the outside tyre is greater than the inside tyre due to the load transfer. More static toe out means more effective Ackerman angle, which is not desired at high speeds. If you look at the front tyres of Formula cars during steering, you'll see that they actually have negative Ackerman engineered into the steering geo.
3. A lesser effect, but an effect nonetheless, aero. Toe out creates a larger frontal cd, hurting top speed on faster tracks. We want max speed, always..

So while yes, static toe out does provide a slightly bitier turn in motion as you allow the outside tyre a moment to receive load before generating thrust via tyre slip angle. The negatives everywhere else outweigh the positive. There are always other aspects to consider, but hopefully this explains why I never go for static front toe out. I'm sure one day I'll be proven wrong, but until that happens this is the way I'm doing it. My customer's and my lap times can do the talking ?

@tezzasaurusrex thanks for the details and advice!

You are correct, this is opposite to what many are recommending for a conventional race alignment setup, and I'm very curious to validate this with my track times.

I will adjust toe between my next Laguna Seca sessions, and see what's going on. For sure my car feels much more eager to turn in, and I'm not feeling any understeer anymore. Maybe there is a penalty for tire heat, but MotoIQ says it's the opposite that he's seeing less heat and better wear with some toe out. I don't see the stock tires sticking out much and it's not past the fenders so the aero looks the same to me. I'm sure this is also track specific. On an autocross course, larger toe out for sure will help. Maybe a faster course less toe out or zero.

Let's find out!

Data Data Data

 

[J1Avs]

TC/VSA Off via Long Hold fan here.

Pedal Dance absolutely unleashes additional power, but if you have any serious throttle commitment, it is going to turn into a lot of wasted wheel spin and a bunch of push. There's a very fine line where it will likely be faster, but it's very very fine, and as a result is going to more often return slower laps. Absolutely no difference under braking.

I was about 1-1.2 seconds slower after trying it out for a session. Didn't bother going back to it.

I was running -3.55 camber up front. about -1.8 in the rear. 0* toe all around. Stock power, stock springs, etc.

Plenty of rotation, and AHA assists with rotation.

 

[RacingManiac]

Stock spring with camber plates or something to get 3.5* of camber?

 

[johnloov]

TC/VSA Off via Long Hold fan here.

Pedal Dance absolutely unleashes additional power, but if you have any serious throttle commitment, it is going to turn into a lot of wasted wheel spin and a bunch of push. There's a very fine line where it will likely be faster, but it's very very fine, and as a result is going to more often return slower laps. Absolutely no difference under braking.

I was about 1-1.2 seconds slower after trying it out for a session. Didn't bother going back to it.

I was running -3.55 camber up front. about -1.8 in the rear. 0* toe all around. Stock power, stock springs, etc.

Plenty of rotation, and AHA assists with rotation.

We will test two Type R's with good baseline's on Laguna Seca on the 15th.

1) Stock FL5 - Castrol SRF - Camber Pins out 5mm toe out - went from .05 mm toe in to ~0.5mm toe out, lap times improved. Will be tested with 5mm toe out. Pedal dance and Long press vs Standard Type R

2) Suspension modified Type R - twin oil coolers, stock power, previous with zero toe and now will be tested with toe out and the owner is an experienced racer. He says now it feels 1000x's better.

Let's see what the actual lap times and data shows us on track.

Stay Tuned...

 

[J1Avs]

We will test two Type R's with good baseline's on Laguna Seca on the 15th.

1) Stock FL5 - Castrol SRF - Camber Pins out 5mm toe out - went from .05 mm toe in to ~0.5mm toe out, lap times improved. Will be tested with 5mm toe out. Pedal dance and Long press vs Standard Type R

2) Suspension modified Type R - twin oil coolers, stock power, previous with zero toe and now will be tested with 6mm toe out and the owner is an experienced racer. He says now it feels 1000x's better.

Let's see what the actual lap times and data shows us on track.

Stay Tuned...

Not to be super rude -- but your data is going to be pretty useless.

You don't have the pace and consistency for it to be relevant, since there are too many factors at play. Your previous post claiming 8 seconds because of an alignment is ridiculous. You just drove better and more confidently.

Baxi's data will be much more relevant, but it's likely going to come down to his preference and driving style.

Also note -- the LogR is hyper inconsistent with laptimes, because of a slow refresh rate, so if you are really focused on data, you should get a proper datalogger.

Sponsored