vs Forte GT

[GrDeleto]

Bit of an interesting thing. Especially since the forte gt is 4k cheaper, It does bring up an interesting conversation.

Sponsored

 

[katch922]

Strange comparison, I wouldn't even compare it to the Si. Forte GT is nothing close to sports car, it's just a gimmick Forte.

 

[VarmintCong]

Strange comparison, I wouldn't even compare it to the Si. Forte GT is nothing close to sports car, it's just a gimmick Forte.

I haven't driven one, but before buying my 2017 Sport hatch, I did drive the Elantra GT (hatch) which had the same engine. That was a nice car, a little sporty, just not as much as the specs and looks would make you think. The Sport hatch was more fun to drive, although I didn't find a manual Elantra GT to compare it to.

If the Civic or Mazda 3 didn't exist it would be worth consideration, and it's cheaper.

 

[VarmintCong]

Bit of an interesting thing. Especially since the forte gt is 4k cheaper, It does bring up an interesting conversation.

A used 10th gen Si would be a better choice, at least once prices normalize. In fact I'd take a non-Si 6mT Civic as well. But if you must buy new it's not a bad deal.

 

[katch922]

I haven't driven one, but before buying my 2017 Sport hatch, I did drive the Elantra GT (hatch) which had the same engine. That was a nice car, a little sporty, just not as much as the specs and looks would make you think. The Sport hatch was more fun to drive, although I didn't find a manual Elantra GT to compare it to.

If the Civic or Mazda 3 didn't exist it would be worth consideration, and it's cheaper.

Ya I don't mean to bash it. I'm sure it's a decent car, but it's probably more comparable to a civic sport. No LSD, fwd, probably weak brakes, all season tires. I'd def consider a GTI, WRX, or SI at that price point instead. If you also live where it snows, oh man that fwd gonna feel like crap without an lsd.

 

[TypeRD]

@katch922 There’s pretty much no need for a LSD on a fwd car. In fact, I’ve never seen a fwd vehicle with a LSD…though I understand they exist in rare instances. An LSD can actually make handling worse on a fwd vehicle in snow (keeping in mind most of the car’s weight is on the front wheels). It’s rwd that really has the most trouble in snow (especially if the engine is in front). This is why virtually all non-4wd trucks have a LSD.

 

[VarmintCong]

@katch922 There’s pretty much no need for a LSD on a fwd car. In fact, I’ve never seen a fwd vehicle with a LSD…though I understand they exist in rare instances. An LSD can actually make handling worse on a fwd vehicle in snow (keeping in mind most of the car’s weight is on the front wheels). It’s rwd that really has the most trouble in snow (especially if the engine is in front). This is why virtually all non-4wd trucks have a LSD.

Not sure you're being serious but if so, the LSD in my Si made it significantly better in snow than my 2017 Sport hatch with open diff. Just like how it helps in rain, it helps in snow.

Si, Type R, GTI (now all of them I think), Hyundai N cars all have LSDs.

 

[TypeRD]

@VarmintCong
Yes, like I said, in rare instances fwd cars have LSD. It appears to be mostly common on performance models, which makes sense. LSD helps handling and helps put power to the ground.

On a whole, I still don’t think it is a common feature on fwd commuter vehicles (including the Forte, despite the sporty esthetics). Admittedly, I have not deeply researched all cars like plain vanilla Camrys, Malibus, Corollas, Elantras, Altimas, etc., but at a glance it doesn’t appear that they come standard with LSD either.

Whether or not it helps in snow (in ALL fwd cars) is definitely debatable. Its usefulness depends on available power, traction, and weight distribution. All of these factors vary, and in many cases I think it can actually make understeer worse in snow. I believe this is the reason most common (non-performance) fwd vehicles don’t have LSD (and can often be turned on/off on vehicles equipped with it). That's all I’m saying. I may be wrong and am open to learning new things.

 

[katch922]

I haven't seen an option to turn on/off lsd, maybe cars with e-lsd such as Elantra N have the option. I've only owned RWD with LSD and I know it's a must. I wouldn't even consider a fwd/rwd car without it. There are a decent amount of cars with LSD, but you won't find them on mainstream models.
You'll find them on things like BRZ, 86, Elantra N, GTI, G70 Sport, Lexus RCF etc...

I've owned 1 car fwd without lsd and it was obsolete rubbish to drive. Even my Mazda CX5 is not that great, their AWD system isn't great. It's mainly a FWD with some power sometimes going to back tires. It's nothing like Subaru AWD, or many other brands like some Toyota models.

Imo it will definitely help in rain, snow, or if you drop a wheel in gravel.

 

[VarmintCong]

@VarmintCong
Yes, like I said, in rare instances fwd cars have LSD. It appears to be mostly common on performance models, which makes sense. LSD helps handling and helps put power to the ground.

On a whole, I still don’t think it is a common feature on fwd commuter vehicles (including the Forte, despite the sporty esthetics). Admittedly, I have not deeply researched all cars like plain vanilla Camrys, Malibus, Corollas, Elantras, Altimas, etc., but at a glance it doesn’t appear that they come standard with LSD either.

Whether or not it helps in snow (in ALL fwd cars) is definitely debatable. Its usefulness depends on available power, traction, and weight distribution. All of these factors vary, and in many cases I think it can actually make understeer worse in snow. I believe this is the reason most common (non-performance) fwd vehicles don’t have LSD (and can often be turned on/off on vehicles equipped with it). That's all I’m saying. I may be wrong and am open to learning new things.

I drove my Si only a few times in decent amounts of snow, and since the tires were so good (Nokian Hakkapeliitas) can be a little hard to tell, but the car seemed better than my Sport hatch. The difference in rain was night and day, because turning from a stop in the hatch would spin the tires all day, and that was vastly reduced in the Si. I observed the same in the snow. Since snow behaves like a liquid, it doesn't make sense that an LSD would help in rain and not in snow.

Carmakers don't put LSDs in most FWD cars cause the consumer doesn't know what it does and its expensive. I argued on the 10th gen forum that LSD should be standard on 6mT Civics, cause it's so easy to spin the tires with a clutch and open diff.

 

[VarmintCong]

I haven't seen an option to turn on/off lsd, maybe cars with e-lsd such as Elantra N have the option. I've only owned RWD with LSD and I know it's a must. I wouldn't even consider a fwd/rwd car without it. There are a decent amount of cars with LSD, but you won't find them on mainstream models.
You'll find them on things like BRZ, 86, Elantra N, GTI, G70 Sport, Lexus RCF etc...

I've owned 1 car fwd without lsd and it was obsolete rubbish to drive. Even my Mazda CX5 is not that great, their AWD system isn't great. It's mainly a FWD with some power sometimes going to back tires. It's nothing like Subaru AWD, or many other brands like some Toyota models.

Imo it will definitely help in rain, snow, or if you drop a wheel in gravel.

our 2002 WRX was the last model with an LSD - it was amazing in the snow. You'd could drift the car around as you pleased at 5-10 mph, it was a blast. I tried that in our Outback and Ascent, and it wasn't happening. They were no fun in the snow, although that's probably by design, your typical Subaru customer wouldn't want the car going sideways.

I dont' think an LSD is a must in FWD, if you put good tires on it. My Focus has Pilot Sports from the factory, and they never slip in the rain, but then it's an automatic so it doesn't put power down as quickly.

I wish I put an LSD in my 2004 330i ZHP, should have done that but it would have cost like $3k and I was skinflinting. It was fun in snow but would have been a lot better with an LSD.

 

[TypeRD]

@VarmintCong Bingo! I think you hit the nail on the head. Auto makers don’t put LSD on most common FWD vehicles because they usually have an automatic transmission.

We all know that the automatics found in these kinds of cars are designed primarily for safety and efficiency, not performance. As such, the ECU is programmed NOT to allow wheel spin by carefully controlling the throttle response and gear, therefore power to the wheels. This renders an LSD almost completely unnecessary, regardless of added cost or the general consumer’s knowledge of what they are or how they work. Like you said : If you have good tires, you should be pretty much good to go.

Yeah, I agree it makes total sense that LSDs should be standard on any modern 6mt vehicle since the driver is in control of the throttle and the gear. It aids performance, handling, and safety on dry roads. Regarding the efficacy of an LSD in snow the jury is mixed. It seems there are pros and cons vs an open differential. Efficacy of either system is indeed situational. What’s key in either case is traction (good tires). This article concisely outlines and compares what we’re discussing. I’m not an expert and found it helpful. Reading a bit on other car forums, it seems that LSD vs open differential is a common area of confusion and debate too.?
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

Regarding handling in rain vs snow, there are some similarities, but also a pretty big difference. The main difference is that snow will pack into the tire treads and reduce traction even moreso than rain.

Note : My example earlier about trucks was incorrect. I was getting mixed up with a locking differential…which is quite different from an LSD. Doh! My bad.

 

[VarmintCong]

@VarmintCong Bingo! I think you hit the nail on the head. Auto makers don’t put LSD on most common FWD vehicles because they usually have an automatic transmission.

We all know that the automatics found in these kinds of cars are designed primarily for safety and efficiency, not performance. As such, the ECU is programmed NOT to allow wheel spin by carefully controlling the throttle response and gear, therefore power to the wheels. This renders an LSD almost completely unnecessary, regardless of added cost or the general consumer’s knowledge of what they are or how they work. Like you said : If you have good tires, you should be pretty much good to go.

Try driving an Si in the rain, and then a CVT Civic in the rain, you'll realize this isn't true at all. Both the 6mT and CVT cuts power to prevent wheelspin, it's part of the traction control software, so if you try to accelerate quickly in the rain, like turning left onto a rainy road, in an open diff civic, it just bogs down and goes nowhere as the traction control cuts power or applies the brakes. This happens in the 6mT as well.

This is in no way equivalent to an Si with an LSD, it's the opposite. That's why many Si owners won't go back to an open diff Civic.

And my Si had the crappy stock all season tires. I didn't own it long enough to get real summer tires. Still rocked in the rain thanks to the LSD.

In my Focus I can put it in sport mode, disable traction control, and get all kinds of wheel spin, since it's an open diff.

 

[katch922]

I'm not very knowledgeable in this topic, but I guess my biggest pleasure from driving cars with LSD is on winding roads or turns that you take faster than you should.

 

[PointByPatrol]

The IVT in that dumpster fire will eventually explode. Avert your eyes my sweet!