FL5 Track Considerations

[JayFL5]

You can take your car bone stock depending on how hard you're planning to push the car. If you're planning to set a time of some sort I'd recommend getting pads + fluids + lines, then go to engine cooling mods from there. Probably get a radiator / oil cooler / intercooler / intake / inlet from there..... Car is going to overheat regardless so might as well be able to stop reliably and not cook the fluid.

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[Djseto]

just make sure to do the pedal dance to turn off the rear brake vectoring.

I’m not new to track days as I’ve been tracking my 93 RX7 for years but after seeing @PointByPatrol roll his FL5 at VIR, which is also my home track (and I’ve been off where he went off), I’ve decided to retire my RX7 since i would not have walked away like he did. Anyways, why would I want to disable brake vectoring aside from the fact that it would cause some additonal wear? Part of the handling magic of the FL5 is its ability to anticipate your intended angle and use vectoring to assist.

I’m also a bit of a purest since my RX7 has zero electronic assists but if I’m gonna to run a modern car, a little help isn’t a bad thing ??‍

im also trying to decide must do stuff for track days for later this year. I had track rotors and pads for my RX7 but spare rotors were also $40 a piece (for Brembos!). The bare minimum is SRF, stainless lines, and probably at least front pads, but I also don’t wanna go nuts on the bank account. Likely will do oil cooler because it gets warm here in NC/VA. Def not cheap part though. I can run my 30 year old car all day without overheating so all these threads I’ve seen about the FL5 getting hot and need cool downs makes me a little sad. Pace wise, I run probably in the top of the intermediate groups with the track groups I run with.

 

[PointByPatrol]

I'll be going to the track over Memorial Day weekend with only Castrol SRF and Paragon R5's. Zero other modifications, and a completely stock alignment. We'll see how it goes...

I'm still going to run in +R with all of the nannies turned off.

The reasoning behind the R5's instead of a more aggressive pad are due to the stock tires. I don't want to run into a situation where I'm out-braking the stock tires. As I'm typing this I'm literally thinking that even the R5's might be a bit too aggressive for the PS4S's, and that I should have maybe gone with the R3's. I'm also running a square brake setup, where formerly I've run staggered setups with a more aggressive pad in the front, and a less aggressive pad in the rear. I'm kind of curious to see how it feels.

I've got a buddy who instructs with NASA that will be riding with me for the weekend to help me get back on the horse. He and I have had several conversations about what we're going to work on and how it's going to go, and I remember him asking me if I ever brake hard enough to trigger the ABS, and I never have. I brake just hard enough to stay out of the ABS threshold...He basically said that he's going to force me to brake even harder so that the ABS triggers at the end of each straightaway...Not sure I really see the point. I personally believe that if you're braking so hard that you're triggering the ABS, then you're doing it wrong...

 

[Sooner1]

 

[Gansan]

In my experience with an Integra Type R, when you're at ABS-activating brake pressure, pressing even harder on the pedal actually increases your deceleration even more. You can brake noticeably harder than just before ABS, assuming you have a properly working system. I haven't taken the new car to the track, so I don't know how the new one will respond.

My old Silverado, on the other hand, would scarily surge forward when I activated ABS. That system increased your stopping distance!

 

[PointByPatrol]

Was this your experience during your track shake down?

 

[Sooner1]

Was this your experience during your track shake down?

Don't know that I have enough experience in the FL5 to answer that question specific to the FL5. In my previous track experience with a track prepared '90 911 I felt getting into the ABS was much better than trying to threshold brake. But, most of that came down to skill. I am not a professional driver. ABS braking was something I did not have to think about as long as I was braking in a straight line - just mash the pedal until ABS kicked in.
When F1 allowed it teams used ABS even with the slight weight penalty. Who knows if the drivers used it consistently or if it was just to prevent the occasional lockup.
I believe that unless your skill is at or near the profession level ABS braking will be far better and more reliable on average.

 

[optronix]

I’m not new to track days as I’ve been tracking my 93 RX7 for years but after seeing @PointByPatrol roll his FL5 at VIR, which is also my home track (and I’ve been off where he went off), I’ve decided to retire my RX7 since i would not have walked away like he did. Anyways, why would I want to disable brake vectoring aside from the fact that it would cause some additonal wear? Part of the handling magic of the FL5 is its ability to anticipate your intended angle and use vectoring to assist.

I’m also a bit of a purest since my RX7 has zero electronic assists but if I’m gonna to run a modern car, a little help isn’t a bad thing ??‍

im also trying to decide must do stuff for track days for later this year. I had track rotors and pads for my RX7 but spare rotors were also $40 a piece (for Brembos!). The bare minimum is SRF, stainless lines, and probably at least front pads, but I also don’t wanna go nuts on the bank account. Likely will do oil cooler because it gets warm here in NC/VA. Def not cheap part though. I can run my 30 year old car all day without overheating so all these threads I’ve seen about the FL5 getting hot and need cool downs makes me a little sad. Pace wise, I run probably in the top of the intermediate groups with the track groups I run with.

I think the context here is on stock pads. Brake vectoring is very hard on pads, and could lead to some serious issues on track in a worst-case scenario situation.

Best case you just wear the shit out of your pads. Worst case they... boil the fluid and catch on fire?

That said I'm curious because one of the instructors with a Type R at an autocross last week wasn't aware of the pedal dance at all, and my instructor who had driven the Type R commented on how different my car (ITS) felt vs the CTR. He came straight out and said he didn't like how it drove, said that the power delivery felt "weird" and "delayed", and that experience actively turned him away from the car! He wasn't aware of the pedal dance either, insists he turned traction control off, and his symptoms he described match what I experienced with my ITS without the pedal dance- but I thought the Type R didn't need to do the pedal dance because of Thomas' smug comment in his review of it on Throttle House.



So I'm asking, what exactly is the difference between the Type R and Type S? I'm guessing this isn't documented anywhere since technically the pedal dance is a "service mode", right?

I'll be going to the track over Memorial Day weekend with only Castrol SRF and Paragon R5's. Zero other modifications, and a completely stock alignment. We'll see how it goes...

I'm still going to run in +R with all of the nannies turned off.

The reasoning behind the R5's instead of a more aggressive pad are due to the stock tires. I don't want to run into a situation where I'm out-braking the stock tires. As I'm typing this I'm literally thinking that even the R5's might be a bit too aggressive for the PS4S's, and that I should have maybe gone with the R3's. I'm also running a square brake setup, where formerly I've run staggered setups with a more aggressive pad in the front, and a less aggressive pad in the rear. I'm kind of curious to see how it feels.

I've got a buddy who instructs with NASA that will be riding with me for the weekend to help me get back on the horse. He and I have had several conversations about what we're going to work on and how it's going to go, and I remember him asking me if I ever brake hard enough to trigger the ABS, and I never have. I brake just hard enough to stay out of the ABS threshold...He basically said that he's going to force me to brake even harder so that the ABS triggers at the end of each straightaway...Not sure I really see the point. I personally believe that if you're braking so hard that you're triggering the ABS, then you're doing it wrong...

I'm certainly no expert but this is what experts have repeatedly told me to do. Any instructor I've ever talked to insists that "standing on the brakes" is the absolute best way to fast lap times. Obviously this is not universal, but in theory the longer you're on power, the more speed you'll carry in the turn. If your brakes are capable of stopping the car faster, then you're leaving seconds on the track by not letting the ABS system do its thing.

Here's a decent little blog I found on it, written by Ross Bentley who I think is a pretty big deal- and someone in the comments references cars with "motorsports ABS" like BMWs and Porsches, so there is some engineering effort that goes into this as well.

https://speedsecrets.com/q-should-i...r-is-there-ever-a-reason-for-braking-lighter/

 

[PointByPatrol]

I think the context here is on stock pads. Brake vectoring is very hard on pads, and could lead to some serious issues on track in a worst-case scenario situation.

Best case you just wear the shit out of your pads. Worst case they... boil the fluid and catch on fire?

That said I'm curious because one of the instructors with a Type R at an autocross last week wasn't aware of the pedal dance at all, and my instructor who had driven the Type R commented on how different my car (ITS) felt vs the CTR. He came straight out and said he didn't like how it drove, said that the power delivery felt "weird" and "delayed", and that experience actively turned him away from the car! He wasn't aware of the pedal dance either, insists he turned traction control off, and his symptoms he described match what I experienced with my ITS without the pedal dance- but I thought the Type R didn't need to do the pedal dance because of Thomas' smug comment in his review of it on Throttle House.



So I'm asking, what exactly is the difference between the Type R and Type S? I'm guessing this isn't documented anywhere since technically the pedal dance is a "service mode", right?




I'm certainly no expert but this is what experts have repeatedly told me to do. Any instructor I've ever talked to insists that "standing on the brakes" is the absolute best way to fast lap times. Obviously this is not universal, but in theory the longer you're on power, the more speed you'll carry in the turn. If your brakes are capable of stopping the car faster, then you're leaving seconds on the track by not letting the ABS system do its thing.

Here's a decent little blog I found on it, written by Ross Bentley who I think is a pretty big deal- and someone in the comments references cars with "motorsports ABS" like BMWs and Porsches, so there is some engineering effort that goes into this as well.

https://speedsecrets.com/q-should-i...r-is-there-ever-a-reason-for-braking-lighter/

...and here I thought I was pretty hard on the brakes! Maybe some of my feeling on this comes in to play when I need to load up on the brakes through a turn. I don't feel I can rotate properly while standing on the brakes because I'm already using a vast limit of the grip for slowing down???

This is an intriguing topic...at least for me. I guess my friend/instructor really has a point, but this also points out the vast variation in instructors. I've been told so many conflicting theories throughout my experience. I've literally sat in track instruction hearing the instructor tell us that we're braking too hard if we are enabling ABS.

Here I am wanting to be an instructor, but one of my biggest deterrents for now is wanting to ensure that I know enough. It's important to me to be "correct", and especially with a student. I'd feel awful if I told someone wrong, and it held them back, or worse...caused an accident.

 

[Gansan]

Here's a decent little blog I found on it, written by Ross Bentley who I think is a pretty big deal- and someone in the comments references cars with "motorsports ABS" like BMWs and Porsches, so there is some engineering effort that goes into this as well.

https://speedsecrets.com/q-should-i...r-is-there-ever-a-reason-for-braking-lighter/

I agree with this Speedsecrets.com blog that points out that smoothness is very important, and it's totally correct to brake in a way that lets you enter the corner smoothly and keep the car balanced. Even if mega-ABS braking is the maximum the car can do, that doesn't mean you're always doing that. What I've always done is back off once the initial hard braking is done and transition to trail braking on turn-in. I also don't always hit ABS even, because it just feels so abusive to the tires and pads. Both of them heat up even more and you will pay for it in later laps as your tires fade.

 

[optronix]

...and here I thought I was pretty hard on the brakes! Maybe some of my feeling on this comes in to play when I need to load up on the brakes through a turn. I don't feel I can rotate properly while standing on the brakes because I'm already using a vast limit of the grip for slowing down???

This is an intriguing topic...at least for me. I guess my friend/instructor really has a point, but this also points out the vast variation in instructors. I've been told so many conflicting theories throughout my experience. I've literally sat in track instruction hearing the instructor tell us that we're braking too hard if we are enabling ABS.

Here I am wanting to be an instructor, but one of my biggest deterrents for now is wanting to ensure that I know enough. It's important to me to be "correct", and especially with a student. I'd feel awful if I told someone wrong, and it held them back, or worse...caused an accident.

I love seeing this type of mentality, because I think it's super important to be aware of one's own limitations. Especially something like racing, for god's sake there an unimaginable amount of things involved just trying to get a car around a fixed circuit as fast as possible! I think it's fair to say we all have something to learn, and there may not always even be a right or wrong answer.

But as for braking, the way I see it is I try to get as much braking done before I need the tires to do something else as possible- assuming you have the ability to do so, which isn't always the case. The "standing on the brakes" reference, to me, is pretty much exclusive to when you have the opportunity to get the car completely under control, in the line you want, before slowing down to turn in- the easiest way my mind sees it is after a long straight. I most definitely will trigger ABS in this situation. Otherwise tapping the brakes to bring it in line mid-corner, threshold and trail braking are more applicable "tools" in other situations, where you're nowhere near getting to the point of triggering ABS.

Hopefully that makes more sense than it did in my head when I typed it lol.

 

[PointByPatrol]

I love seeing this type of mentality, because I think it's super important to be aware of one's own limitations. Especially something like racing, for god's sake there an unimaginable amount of things involved just trying to get a car around a fixed circuit as fast as possible! I think it's fair to say we all have something to learn, and there may not always even be a right or wrong answer.

But as for braking, the way I see it is I try to get as much braking done before I need the tires to do something else as possible- assuming you have the ability to do so, which isn't always the case. The "standing on the brakes" reference, to me, is pretty much exclusive to when you have the opportunity to get the car completely under control, in the line you want, before slowing down to turn in- the easiest way my mind sees it is after a long straight. I most definitely will trigger ABS in this situation. Otherwise tapping the brakes to bring it in line mid-corner, threshold and trail braking are more applicable "tools" in other situations, where you're nowhere near getting to the point of triggering ABS.

Hopefully that makes more sense than it did in my head when I typed it lol.

I see that you are located in the Mid-Atlantic. Have you been to VIR? There is one section of the track in particular that I think threshold braking makes more sense than hitting the ABS. In the first turn at the end of the front straight I can completely see an advantage to ABS braking, but at Roller Coaster T13-T15 (The end of the back straight) you're needing to brake hard as you veer left, release pressure at the crest, then once straight re-apply hard pressure, then immediately release pressure and trail brake into a hard right downhill turn.

 

[optronix]

I see that you are located in the Mid-Atlantic. Have you been to VIR? There is one section of the track in particular that I think threshold braking makes more sense than hitting the ABS. In the first turn at the end of the front straight I can completely see an advantage to ABS braking, but at Roller Coaster T13-T15 (The end of the back straight) you're needing to brake hard as you veer left, release pressure at the crest, then once straight re-apply hard pressure, then immediately release pressure and trail brake into a hard right downhill turn.

That's it. I don't know what your instructor buddy will try to tell you- curious though- but what you're describing makes sense to me. It just doesn't make sense to do an "on again off again" braking scenario in that situation, for sure.

And I have not been to VIR, I was considering trying to make it one day and maybe that will happen. But I've got Summit Point and Dominion both within 1.5-2 hour drive, the 6 hours to VIR just hasn't logistically appealed to me up to this point.

 

[BigBird]

I’m not new to track days as I’ve been tracking my 93 RX7 for years but after seeing @PointByPatrol Anyways, why would I want to disable brake vectoring aside from the fact that it would cause some additonal wear? Part of the handling magic of the FL5 is its ability to anticipate your intended angle and use vectoring to assist.

Yes and no. VSA uses the brakes to the point they get overheated, so you'll only get a lap or 2 if you are going at a good clip, you'll get heat soak most likely anyway, so a lap or two at max pace would be fine. Otherwise at HPDE pace, yeah keep it on

 

[Djseto]

I think braking techniques vary by car to an extent. For best times, I do no trail brake on in my RX7. I've been told this by multiple people who race FD RX7s. The FD suspension is superb in that you don't want to load the front at turn in because you don't need trailbraking for maximum grip. I break hard initially to slow down quick and progressively let off to make sure the car is balanced going into a turn. I try very hard not have weight loaded front or rear at turn in. Once I am at the apex or even a little sooner, I get on the gas, let the diff, and near 50/50 balance rotate the car. I know transitioning to FWD is gonna be a huge adjustment for me.

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