Head to head comparison of “off the shelf” tunes for a stock fl5 coming soon. (UPDATED WITH INTERIM RESULTS)

[Backmarker]

Hi folks,

Between my work travel and the dyno having a 4 week backlog it is taking forever to get the car back on the dyno. So as an intermediate step I will compile the results from the last dyno and share the results. That will give everyone an accurate picture up to 6k rpms.

I will still do the retest but dont want to keep people waiting.

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[Backmarker]

As promised folks here are the initial results. All of the runs used the same methodology that was developed after discussion with the individual tuners. The car was allowed to cool between runs so IAT and coolant temps were consistent. Traction control was fully disabled (pedal dance) and the dyno has excellent air flow across the front of the car.


I have omitted the chart results over 5800 rpm as both the TSP and Phearable tunes began pulling timing due to knock. I suspect the 93 octane I was running was less than great. Ignition timing and knock looked great for all four tunes below 5800. So "peak horsepower" is not accurately measured.

I will rerun the TSP and Phearable tunes with fresh gas once I get the dyno scheduled.

So full transparency. I am not a tuner so I won't opine on anything other than the results on the dyno and my experience living with these tunes on the street. I have owned an 11.0 second corvette, various bmws, an RX-8 R3, an FD, etc. My priority on the street is nimbleness, liveability, and fun-to-drive factor - not absolute straight line power.

Results and Daily Driving Impressions

Factory Base Map:
- Smooth. Feels like a factory tuned car (no surprise). My impressions when I got the FL5 was the chassis was brilliant but the engine / power was a little underwhelming. It felt quick, but not fast and on the street I was always a little underwhelmed with straight line power.

Hondata 93 Basemap:
- Immediately noticeable increase in power. When the car comes on boost it feels nearly explosive compared to stock. BUT - it also feels like a roughly-tuned "tuner car". There are moments under partial throttle where there is a little bit of hesitation from the tune and the overall experience is fun but a bit course. If I gave you the car with that map in it you would likely know it had been tuned.

TSP and Phearable:
- Both TSP and Phearable make a lot more power than stock and a decent bit more than the 93 Hondata Basemap. They are close enough that there is not a material difference between the two - essentially a draw once you factor in run to run variation.
- Both are very well done and feel factory stock in refinement. Candidly my reaction to both tunes is "this is what Honda should have shipped the cars with". The tunes transform an otherwise bone stock car into a totally different experience where the engine / power now matches the chassis in fun factor. Both are amazing.
- The only caveat for both of these is for street driving the torque comes on HARD around 3k. That can result in some strange mid corner behavior if you are crossing that RPM range mid corner and under throttle. Basically when the torque hits when cornering the car becomes prone to immediate understeer as the tires are overwhelmed, followed by a tendency to dart into the corner as the LSD kicks in. On the track I am bet it is a non-issue as you would be over that rpm range. But on twisty 45mph roads I am often crossing through the 3k range mid-corner.

So what is the bottom line (my two cents):
1) Both TSP and Phearable make great tunes that absolutely transform a stock car and deliver factory-smooth daily driving. I could easily live with a bone stock car with one of their tunes as the only mods and be content for a daily driver car. 100% worth the money over the Hondata 93 Basemap for the improved refinement and peace of mind.

As long as you can live with the warranty implications, I would recommend a Hondata and either of the tunes to everybody with an FL5.

2) If you have one of the TSP or Phearable tunes, I would not buy the other. The power difference (at least below 5800 rpm) was negligible in my testing and there was enough variability run to run to call it a draw. We will see if that changes once we can measure peak power in the retest. Both are similar enough I can not tell the difference in day-to-day driving. I *can* immediately tell if I switch to the 93 basemap (tune is more coarse and less refined).

Hopefully this is helpful. For the record I have no affiliation with any of the above companies. I paid for the tunes, the Hondata, and the dyno time myself. I appreciate this community and just want to share back with all of y'all.

- Phillip

 

[modern_sports_car]

Thank you for the data. Very helpful. I saw a video where the tune also included some use of the traction control that reduced wheel spin considerably (which would obviously alter driving experience strongly). Was this included in any of your testing?

 

[madsedan]

Any feedback from either tuner as to why their tune was pulling timing on 93 other than "less than great gas"? That experience would steer me away from either one if I knew that I had to put research into where I buy my 93 octane while driving around north Texas.

 

[Two Step Performance]

Any feedback from either tuner as to why their tune was pulling timing on 93 other than "less than great gas"? That experience would steer me away from either one if I knew that I had to put research into where I buy my 93 octane while driving around north Texas.

Testing of our tune internationally with various fuel types including but not limited to US 91 and 93 octane lead to the conclusion that this behavior was simply due to poor fuel quality. Unfortunately you do not always get what you pay for. The "good thing" is that the ECU is smart enough to accommodate for this and there is no risk here, only decreased performance. If anyone wants to confirm that their fuel is what it is supposed to be, we would encourage reviewing a datalog like we are all doing here.

 

[Jester04]

Testing of our tune internationally with various fuel types including but not limited to US 91 and 93 octane lead to the conclusion that this behavior was simply due to poor fuel quality. Unfortunately you do not always get what you pay for. The "good thing" is that the ECU is smart enough to accommodate for this and there is no risk here, only decreased performance. If anyone wants to confirm that their fuel is what it is supposed to be, we would encourage reviewing a datalog like we are all doing here.

To add some info to this just for people that have questions.

The ECU on the car is very smart and reacts extremely quickly to knock. All engines will knock and I can’t state this enough, there will be times where knock will be inevitable. Be it real knock or false knock. The way this ecu steps down timing on knock events is very aggressive. Also the FL5 you can’t adjust the step downs for knock yet. The tunes are safe, there are different approaches to tuning just choose the one that best works for you.

You have good vendors here that are here to support you and answer questions. The Type R is very picky with fuel quality. I always before even starting to tune a car I ask a series of questions of where you get your gas, mods, etc. Use only top tier gas since they tend to be the most consistent. With that said you won’t always get the best batch, sometimes fuel is just bad but the car will compensate for it.

 

[madsedan]

Testing of our tune internationally with various fuel types including but not limited to US 91 and 93 octane lead to the conclusion that this behavior was simply due to poor fuel quality. Unfortunately you do not always get what you pay for. The "good thing" is that the ECU is smart enough to accommodate for this and there is no risk here, only decreased performance. If anyone wants to confirm that their fuel is what it is supposed to be, we would encourage reviewing a datalog like we are all doing here.

Good deal and good explanation, thanks!

 

[Tickle]

Yep! And, that's why I wish there was better general knowledge on this. There are (probably) plenty of folks out there with heavily financed cars that are considering tuning w. the impression they can hide it if they need to, and that has the potential to get messy. I'm not try to excuse folks making irresponsible decisions or doing their own risk / reward assessments, etc., but there are a lot of posts here and elsewhere claiming a reflash has you covered, and based on feedback here, that's not the case.

TLDR: I just want everyone to be able to make a well informed decision.

Edit: and, as someone who is bringing an OTS tune and tuning service to market... your straightforwardness on this is commendable. I hope it gets you the good attention you deserve.

 

[Backmarker]

Any feedback from either tuner as to why their tune was pulling timing on 93 other than "less than great gas"? That experience would steer me away from either one if I knew that I had to put research into where I buy my 93 octane while driving around north Texas.

Honestly both the tsp tune and Phearables are achieving a lot with a completely stock car. I suspect they are both pushing as much power as safely possible via boost and timing with the stock set up. But ultimately as you approach the limits you will be dependent on fuel quality and other variables.

Fortunately a) the car does a good job of managing knock so you don’t have to sweat engine damage it with trusted tuners like these and b) it only showed any signs of knock over 6k. Generally not a big concern for most street use.

 

[ABPDE5]

Honestly both the tsp tune and Phearables are achieving a lot with a completely stock car. I suspect they are both pushing as much power as safely possible via boost and timing with the stock set up. But ultimately as you approach the limits you will be dependent on fuel quality and other variables.

Fortunately a) the car does a good job of managing knock so you don’t have to sweat engine damage it with trusted tuners like these and b) it only showed any signs of knock over 6k. Generally not a big concern for most street use.

I would add that anytime you tune your car, you should be checking logs, at least at first, to make sure everything is okay re: fuel, etc.

If you can't be bothered to do that or to pay for a custom tune, and you just want to grab an OTS option, flash it, and call it a day, you should probably get a tune for a grade of fuel below what you're going to run, so you have some headroom for situations like this.

 

[Jester04]

I would add that anytime you tune your car, you should be checking logs, at least at first, to make sure everything is okay re: fuel, etc.

If you can't be bothered to do that or to pay for a custom tune, and you just want to grab an OTS option, flash it, and call it a day, you should probably get a tune for a grade of fuel below what you're going to run, so you have some headroom for situations like this.

I always leave a little bit of room so the power is consistent even if you get a batch of a little less quality gas. Power dives every time the car does ignition correction.

But that is just my approach, literally the ECU is so good that it sorts itself out.

 

[Darrin50]

To add some info to this just for people that have questions.

The ECU on the car is very smart and reacts extremely quickly to knock. All engines will knock and I can’t state this enough, there will be times where knock will be inevitable. Be it real knock or false knock. The way this ecu steps down timing on knock events is very aggressive. Also the FL5 you can’t adjust the step downs for knock yet. The tunes are safe, there are different approaches to tuning just choose the one that best works for you.

You have good vendors here that are here to support you and answer questions. The Type R is very picky with fuel quality. I always before even starting to tune a car I ask a series of questions of where you get your gas, mods, etc. Use only top tier gas since they tend to be the most consistent. With that said you won’t always get the best batch, sometimes fuel is just bad but the car will compensate for it.

What do you recommend for the most consistently good 93. I have Speedway, Shell, Marathon, Mobil and BP near me. Mobil is usually my first choice.

 

[Jester04]

What do you recommend for the most consistently good 93. I have Speedway, Shell, Marathon, Mobil and BP near me. Mobil is usually my first choice.

I have had good results with top tier gas brands. The list is online, but a few are Sunoco, Shell, Costco.

 

[rst3b]

Is the Phearable tune generally regarded as a more aggressive tune compared to the TSP? Phearable states like 380whp on 93 on a stock vehicle. TSP is around 360whp on 93 on what looks to be a basic bolt-on car. Is this just down to differences in dyno? I know max whp numbers don’t matter as dynos read different, but even the advertised gains over stock are quite different.

Trying to pick one of these tunes. From the initial dyno of this post they seem pretty similar so far.

 

[realtorhoff]

I have had good results with top tier gas brands. The list is online, but a few are Sunoco, Shell, Costco.

This is exciting. I live 1.5 miles from Costco

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