How Does Driving Experience Compare?

[optronix]

That one gets great reviews too, but you know how that goes. ?

The G87 gets rave reviews for its composure and performance (and interior). But it's not a pretty thing, and I have yet to find a review that praises anything about its inputs.

I do love the previous gen F87 as well, but still prefer the FL5/DE5 over it. For me personally the inputs are VERY important, well over raw performance potential, and there is not a better car anywhere near this price point for that.

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[Manettino]

Even something like a 2020 M2 Competition? It seems to get rave reviews.

From my experience with BMWs, especially recent ones, they feel better when driven hard, like on an autoX or track. The older ones (E46 etc) used to feel great even driving around town, while the new ones feel dead.

Most reviews are done on track or on amazing roads, skewing their perspective.

I would argue they stopped being connected after the e92. It still had hydraulic steering and the s65 is still one of my favorite engines ever.

I didn’t own a F87, but I did have a F80 CS, and have driven friend’s F87s. S55s really need room for them to flex what what engine can do and you’re just not going to have that on the street unless you live in the Midwest or a place with big, open roads.

That generation also feels heavy - first generation EPAS for BMW and they were substituting steering feel with steering weight, and those cars in sports + mode felt like you were steering through wet concrete. Dynamically, the F87 is a short wheelbase, high horsepower, RWD car, so it really does dance and rotate and is a ton of fun. Different story every day - pretty stiff and from what I remember, they don’t have adaptive dampers.

 

[optronix]

I would argue they stopped being connected after the e92. It still had hydraulic steering and the s65 is still one of my favorite engines ever.

I didn’t own a F87, but I did have a F80 CS, and have driven friend’s F87s. S55s really need room for them to flex what what engine can do and you’re just not going to have that on the street unless you live in the Midwest or a place with big, open roads.

That generation also feels heavy - first generation EPAS for BMW and they were substituting steering feel with steering weight, and those cars in sports + mode felt like you were steering through wet concrete. Dynamically, the F87 is a short wheelbase, high horsepower, RWD car, so it really does dance and rotate and is a ton of fun. Different story every day - pretty stiff and from what I remember, they don’t have adaptive dampers.

I agree with everything stated here.

Also worth mentioning the M2 CS does have adaptive dampers, but that's the only way to get them on the F87.

 

[Cornercarver]

While there is no snow where I live-AZ desert- we do get rain. Both the Type R and the SI before it were very capable in the rain, no real issues.
But obviously more fun to drive on a dry road - like most cars.

If I lived in the PNW, I might have an STI, golf R, GRC, or other AWD hot hatch in the garage. But for here - the Type R is about perfect. Rarely notice torque steer. Unlike the Mazda speed 3 I test drove years ago, which wanted to change lanes every time you hit the gas. Understeer is there at the limit, but pretty tame, and you can drive around it if you know the trick. At least the car doesn't try and kill you at every opportunity while you're perfecting your skills.

No, this car will never have the organic feel of say, a Lotus Elise or Cayman or Boxster - but it is fun in its own right, if you learn how to drive it. Takes time to really be one with this car. At least it is light as cars go these days. And you can easily feel the difference if you get into something heavier.
After four years and 40,000 miles on this car...no plans to sell or trade. Can't say more than that.
I don't yearn for another car- just for more fun roads and more skill. Working on both...

 

[optronix]

At least the car doesn't try and kill you at every opportunity while you're perfecting your skills.

It won't try to kill you, but it doesn't have a problem rotating and can bite you with a tank slapper if you're not careful with the throttle. Ask me how I know.

No, this car will never have the organic feel of say, a Lotus Elise or Cayman or Boxster - but it is fun in its own right, if you learn how to drive it. Takes time to really be one with this car. At least it is light as cars go these days. And you can easily feel the difference if you get into something heavier.
After four years and 40,000 miles on this car...no plans to sell or trade. Can't say more than that.
I don't yearn for another car- just for more fun roads and more skill. Working on both...

I won't try to argue that it's better than a Cayman or Boxster- but just the simple fact that it weighs about the same as those cars really speaks volumes.

 

[ABPDE5]

While there is no snow where I live-AZ desert- we do get rain. Both the Type R and the SI before it were very capable in the rain, no real issues.
But obviously more fun to drive on a dry road - like most cars.

If I lived in the PNW, I might have an STI, golf R, GRC, or other AWD hot hatch in the garage. But for here - the Type R is about perfect. Rarely notice torque steer. Unlike the Mazda speed 3 I test drove years ago, which wanted to change lanes every time you hit the gas. Understeer is there at the limit, but pretty tame, and you can drive around it if you know the trick. At least the car doesn't try and kill you at every opportunity while you're perfecting your skills.

No, this car will never have the organic feel of say, a Lotus Elise or Cayman or Boxster - but it is fun in its own right, if you learn how to drive it. Takes time to really be one with this car. At least it is light as cars go these days. And you can easily feel the difference if you get into something heavier.
After four years and 40,000 miles on this car...no plans to sell or trade. Can't say more than that.
I don't yearn for another car- just for more fun roads and more skill. Working on both...

4 years / 40k... you have an FK8?

I believe FL5 / DE5 rotate much more readily than FK8.

 

[Cornercarver]

True, I understand that there are handling differences between the two gens.
And I think I have heard that the FL5 rotates more easily.
That said, I can get the FK8 to rotate. Just takes effort and is not a given.

 

[optronix]

True, I understand that there are handling differences between the two gens.
And I think I have heard that the FL5 rotates more easily.
That said, I can get the FK8 to rotate. Just takes effort and is not a given.

Doesn't really take effort in the FL5/DE5, I swear for the lord. The only "trick" is lift your right foot up a bit while the wheel is turned, and you're moving.

Pedal dance MUST be done though, at least in the DE5. Apparently TC is different in the FL5 but I've heard conflicting reports on that.

 

[MooMoo]

I actually had an M2 competition before the Type R. What a car! BMW did it right with that one, its a hooligan, great daily, great on track. You can beat on it all day at the track no overheating, not even close. For that alone its a better track car than the Type R. I still need to take my Type R to the track more, having a slow year for track days unfortunately but my conclusions so far with 1300 miles on the type R and 1 track day (stock save for brake fluid and pads), the M2 I had about 12 track days on, 23k miles, it had camber plates and 200tw tires on the track.

I actually find the type R a better street car mostly because the interior to me is way more special, the seats are fantastic and above all the shifter is miles above the M2s. It is also of course better as a daily cuz 4 doors, more trunk space but the M2 was enough for me as i don't have kids and don't really have anyone ever in the car. I do think its more fun on the day to day save for once in a while getting the back out, you can't beat the m2, so easy to control and so loose in the back.
Everyone gives the S55 a bad rep for sound but at least the car sounded like something, the type R is just too quite.

On the track I need more time of course, its not a fair comparison but I think in the end the M2 will take the point there, RWD is just better to me and the fact that the stock car can just be beat on track all day with no overheating is fantastic. Also has a freakling front tow hook which is ridiculous the type R does not. Points for the civic on track go to the shifter and above all the seats, the seats are not even comparable, they hold you in much better than the M2s and are more comfortable. I do think the M2s engine is much better for track work. The M2 comp brakes felt better but could have been the pads, I think I prefer ferodos to the paragons I have on the type R.
As far as timings go though I think they are gonna be pretty close, the only track day I did I was pretty close on the type R and thats without 200tw tires or camber and a car I had driven only 800 miles and zero track days, first time on a fwd platform on track, I think the type R will keep up with the m2 comp no problem and maybe even be faster (not the new m2 though).

I don't think one of the cars is better than the other, they are just different. I wish I could have both and I would because I do miss rwd here and there but I am super impressed with the type R, specially for a fwd car, the grip is incredible, torque steer does not bother me, good power and does feel lighter than the m2 which is a big plus for me.

 

[Clark_Kent]

@MooMoo I agree, the F-series M cars could absolutely take a thrashing on track with ambient temps >90F and overheating is an afterthought. The cooling is fantastic on those cars. But they should be given the price point. When the F80 was released in 2015, it stickered in the mid-$60Ks as a stripper. Keep in mind this was pre-inflation. My issue with the S55 wasn't the sound or it's track prowess. I found the sound of the exhaust and engine decent enough. It was also fun, capable on track and you never thought about something breaking (for the most part). My issue is the primary weak link: the hub on the crankshaft. While a spun crank hub did not afflict every car, it happened often enough to be of concern. Massive disappointment.

Unlike the F-series M cars, I don't believe a stock FL5 has proven it can consistently withstand on track temps in the dead of Summer. If you're throwing cooling mods at a car to make it through 20-minute sessions without overheating, it's not a track car - not out of the box anyway. I realize this will likely make some people upset, but the general commentary on the Interweb posits the FL5 as this track behemoth and it's misleading.

 

[MooMoo]

@MooMoo I agree, the F-series M cars could absolutely take a thrashing on track with ambient temps >90F and overheating is an afterthought. The cooling is fantastic on those cars. But they should be given the price point. When the F80 was released in 2015, it stickered in the mid-$60Ks as a stripper. Keep in mind this was pre-inflation. My issue with the S55 wasn't the sound or it's track prowess. I found the sound of the exhaust and engine decent enough. It was also fun, capable on track and you never thought about something breaking (for the most part). My issue is the primary weak link: the hub on the crankshaft. While a spun crank hub did not afflict every car, it happened often enough to be of concern. Massive disappointment.

Unlike the F-series M cars, I don't believe a stock FL5 has proven it can consistently withstand on track temps in the dead of Summer. If you're throwing cooling mods at a car to make it through 20-minute sessions without overheating, it's not a track car - not out of the box anyway. I realize this will likely make some people upset, but the general commentary on the Interweb posits the FL5 as this track behemoth and it's misleading.

Very well said and I completely agree, if you even have to worry that it will overheat in 1 measly 20 min session (let alone a 30) then its not track ready. Of course everyone is different, a beginner or intermediate driver might not be able to get it to overheat, also depends on the track, ect but a 100 degree day out then it will probably do it. I did a few 100 degree days on the m2, no issues at all.
Of course all that cooling came at a price and that was weight, the competiton is about 3500lbs in manual so there is that.

As far as the crank hub, I think its way over hyped. Sure it can happen but the chance of happening to a stock car is so so small. Tuned is a different story but also still plenty of people tuned that never had a problem (I know a few) and being in the m2 forums for a long time, very few people spun their crank hub. But I won't deny that it could happen and it could be a small problem (easy fix) or it could toast your engine and an S55 is not cheap. I would buy a S55 car and not think twice about the crank hub, track the hell out of it. Its a pretty damn reliable car. Also can just put a pinned crank hub for like 4 grand and then you can rest easy.

That said my problem with the bmw is how much it costs for anything. Parts are insanely expensive, like a good exhaust is $3500... I changed my own belt and pulleys and in parts was like $400, had I had a shop do it it woulda been probably a $1200 job lol. I had a few gremlins happen (like the tpms was acting up once in a while and stuff like that, stuff that does not matter but prob cost a fortune to fix). I was also bored with it, had it for almost 3 years, was fun and I miss it but wanted a different platform. What I really want is a GT4 but I don't have 130k+ for a car right now and specially one that would basically just see track time and not much daily

 

[Clark_Kent]

Very well said and I completely agree, if you even have to worry that it will overheat in 1 measly 20 min session (let alone a 30) then its not track ready. Of course everyone is different, a beginner or intermediate driver might not be able to get it to overheat, also depends on the track, ect but a 100 degree day out then it will probably do it. I did a few 100 degree days on the m2, no issues at all.
Of course all that cooling came at a price and that was weight, the competiton is about 3500lbs in manual so there is that.

As far as the crank hub, I think its way over hyped. Sure it can happen but the chance of happening to a stock car is so so small. Tuned is a different story but also still plenty of people tuned that never had a problem (I know a few) and being in the m2 forums for a long time, very few people spun their crank hub. But I won't deny that it could happen and it could be a small problem (easy fix) or it could toast your engine and an S55 is not cheap. I would buy a S55 car and not think twice about the crank hub, track the hell out of it. Its a pretty damn reliable car. Also can just put a pinned crank hub for like 4 grand and then you can rest easy.

That said my problem with the bmw is how much it costs for anything. Parts are insanely expensive, like a good exhaust is $3500... I changed my own belt and pulleys and in parts was like $400, had I had a shop do it it woulda been probably a $1200 job lol. I had a few gremlins happen (like the tpms was acting up once in a while and stuff like that, stuff that does not matter but prob cost a fortune to fix). I was also bored with it, had it for almost 3 years, was fun and I miss it but wanted a different platform. What I really want is a GT4 but I don't have 130k+ for a car right now and specially one that would basically just see track time and not much daily

The data I've seen is about 10% (tuned and untuned). The sample size wasn't large enough to ensure fidelity in the data set, but the instance of occurrence was too high for my risk tolerance. Also, spending $4K on a preventative item to keep my engine together is a non-starter on a car that stickered around $75K (and as high as $105K on the CS I had). I made ~490whp/525wtq on the tuned Base M3 I had. It was fun and utilizing the kickdown on the DCT was earth shattering to me at the time. This was before the spun crank hub really gained traction though. Anyhow, fun times!

 

[MooMoo]

The data I've seen is about 10% (tuned and untuned). The sample size wasn't large enough to ensure fidelity in the data set, but the instance of occurrence was too high for my risk tolerance. Also, spending $4K on a preventative item to keep my engine together is a non-starter on a car that stickered around $75K (and as high as $105K on the CS I had). I made ~490whp/525wtq on the tuned Base M3 I had. It was fun and utilizing the kickdown on the DCT was earth shattering to me at the time. This was before the spun crank hub really gained traction though. Anyhow, fun times!

10%? First I hear that its that high, specially for not tuned..

I do agree that 4k on a car that costs that is high, specially on an m2 that was 58k msrp, people buying them used now for 45k and then having to drop 4-5k for peace of mind is a lot.
I do find it strange that the crankhub thing only gets talking in the US, I feel like never heard anything about this from germany with people beating on their cars on the nurburring.
But in typical bmw form, every car has to have their achiles heel like the rod bearings of the e90 or the subframe of the e46

 

[Clark_Kent]

10%? First I hear that its that high, specially for not tuned..

I do agree that 4k on a car that costs that is high, specially on an m2 that was 58k msrp, people buying them used now for 45k and then having to drop 4-5k for peace of mind is a lot.
I do find it strange that the crankhub thing only gets talking in the US, I feel like never heard anything about this from germany with people beating on their cars on the nurburring.
But in typical bmw form, every car has to have their achiles heel like the rod bearings of the e90 or the subframe of the e46

I noted in my post that figure is tuned and untuned (i.e., stock). But you are correct, it's mainly tuned vehicles that saw issues. And yes, there's always an Achilles' Heel.

 

[FL5Frank]

GT4 as my other car

the Porsche just heightens your experience in every way

it feels more intense, more sense of urgency, more race car, just has to do with the bucket seats, the sounds it makes and the engine revving high and NA

the type R though for me holds its candle, it handles equally well, i can even argue that FWD is easier to carve around corners and faster because you can push limits without the rear end kicking out as easy

what the Porsche has though over the type r is just feedback, I can’t really explain it without you driving it, but the steering wheel speaks to you, while in the type R it feels a bit more subdued

The type R for its price point is really hard to beat, it’s enjoyable, fast, comfortable, great feedback but at the end of the day it’s not a Porsche but that is ok. It doesn’t need to be, it delivers very very close performance to something that costs double to triple the price.

Bottom line is, I don’t get any more enjoyment in the Porsche than I do in the type R

however if you are to choose only 1 track weapon, you know what my answer is going to be, I’ll take the P car

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