For occasional track use , which oil viscosity to use? Using oil data sheet for guidance

[PointByPatrol]

So what’s the best exact engine oil for tracking a stock fl5 and where’s the data to prove it conclusively?

Motul 300v 5w30 is great for the track, and is an ester oil. There was a member on the Civicx website under their tracking section that posted a ton of oil data sheets for Motul oil. IIRC he was using 0w20, and the data was promising. 4Piston recommends 5w30 for occasional track use and 15w40 for hard endurance use. Motul recommends replacing the oil every 1500 miles or 2-3 track, and every 5,000 miles if it's used for street driving since it lacks detergents.

Valvoline VR1 would also be a great oil to try, but unfortunately not for folks that are running catalytic converters.

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[Ktrw]

Ok Fellas! My latest BlackStone report is in, after 3 track days! According to Blackstone received a perfect score.

Seems like Honda Ultimate 0w-20 has minimal shearing - if any almost at ALL ! And my wear metals have mostly all flushed out and we got 8ppm for Aluminum, and it will probably hit 4-5ppm on the next oil change which about as close to the holy grail as you can get.

Conclusion - The Factory Honda OEM Oil seems to do very well with the engine. Seems like they possibly know what they are doing with the formulation.

Correct me if I'm wrong - why would I change to anything else if the data looks solid? @Ktrw

Many thanks to my Honda Dealership and the free oil changes to validate this experiment.

AI Analysis:

The report you provided appears to be an engine oil analysis from Blackstone Laboratories for a 2024 Honda Civic Type R with a 2.0L turbocharged engine. Here's a summary and insights from the report:

Key Observations:

1. Break-In Wear:
   • Aluminum, copper, and silicon levels have decreased significantly, suggesting that the engine's break-in phase is nearly complete.
   • Some wear metals are still slightly elevated on a ppm-per-mile basis, but this is expected for an engine with only three oil changes.
2. Additive and Wear Metal Levels:
   • Key wear metals (iron, copper, and lead) are present, but not at concerning levels.
   • Molybdenum and calcium levels suggest the presence of robust anti-wear and detergent additives in the Honda Ultimate Synthetic 0W-20 oil used.
3. Oil Health:
   • Total Base Number (TBN) is strong at 6.6, indicating sufficient remaining oil alkalinity to neutralize acids.
   • Insolubles, fuel dilution, and water contamination are within normal limits, showing no signs of major issues such as blow-by or coolant leaks.
4. Oil Properties:
   • Viscosity readings (SUS and cSt) are within the expected range, confirming the oil maintained its characteristics during the usage interval.
   • Flashpoint is high, indicating minimal fuel dilution.
5. Recommendation:
   • Blackstone recommends checking again in 3,000 miles to continue monitoring for further stabilization of wear patterns and oil condition.

Overall Assessment:
This report indicates that the engine is breaking in as expected, with no red flags or significant abnormalities in the oil analysis. The Honda Ultimate Synthetic 0W-20 oil performed well in terms of wear protection and maintaining its chemical properties over the oil change interval.

Expected Aluminum PPM Levels:

1. During Break-In Period (First 10,000 Miles):
   • Aluminum levels can range from 10 to 30 ppm as the engine components settle in and wear from pistons or other aluminum components stabilizes.
   • Slightly higher values are normal during this period, especially if the oil interval includes aggressive driving or track use.
2. After Break-In (Normal Driving):
   • Typical aluminum levels should drop to around 1 to 10 ppm, aligning with universal averages for modern engines.
   • Higher values could indicate issues like piston scuffing or abnormal wear.
3. Track Use or Heavy Load:
   • For engines used in demanding conditions like track days, up to 15-20 ppm may still be acceptable, depending on the oil change interval and other wear metals.
   • Consistently higher levels (above 30 ppm) may indicate insufficient film strength or thermal stability in the oil, resulting in increased wear.

What’s a Good Target for Your FL5 Type R?

• For Normal Driving: Aim for ≤10 ppm.
• For Track Use (like Laguna Seca): Keep it under 20 ppm per oil change interval.
• Concerning Levels: Values above 30 ppm may warrant further investigation into piston or cylinder wear, oil choice, or change intervals.

The viscosity is within range for a 0W-20, though it is a bit on the low side for only 1,000 miles, but obviously being track-used that makes more sense. I would use a higher viscosity oil to keep it more in line with 0W-20 at street temperatures. I use SAE J300 viscosity ranges, not whatever Blackstone is referencing, but ideally I want my 0W-20 to be more toward 9.3 cst, not the bottom of the range near 7. This oil obviously starts lower than that brand new, but this oil looks like a pretty standard API SP formulation which is good. Your wear metals are still elevated at ~15ppm per 1000 miles so I'm not sure if that's necessarily conclusive but you're still seeing the trend we would expect for an engine that still has some residual break-in material. Might as well continue using it if the UOAs keep coming back clean. Will be interested to see what your viscosity is looking like in the summer with that oil though.

 

[Ktrw]

The only 0W-20 I found that was close to 9cst was Redline.
@Ktrw "ideally I want my 0W-20 to be more toward 9.3 cs" HUH. 9 is the max I've seen. Please show me a 0w-20 with a 9.3

Currently my dealership is giving me free oil changes, so might as well test it as a baseline. Right now, I'm not seeing any data that proves a Motul 300V 5w-30 is showing any better results. Here is a Motul 300v 5w-30 which is supposedly the absolute best oil, but the data shows it to be similar wear ppm results to my oil changes at the same time frame, but the loss of CST viscosity is much much worse, and this car wasn't tracked at all.

This MOTUL 300V 5w-30 with only 1636 miles and ZERO TRACK EVENTS dropped down to a 9.02 CST ! from a 11.1 CST. This is data below shows it's actually worse than all the hearsay. Right? It's loosing Viscosity faster than an API SP oil. Right?

Correct me if I'm wrong fellas. Anyone got real data to prove this Motul 300V is better?

"More toward 9.3 cst" meaning I want an oil that is closer to that. So yes 9 is closer to that lol. Tracking the car? I'm putting 5W-30 in it because at track temps it will be in the 0W-20 range in terms of viscosity with a higher HTHS and wear protection. Running 0W-20 at track temps is probably more like running a 0W-16 or lower in terms of viscosity.

The "plan to run it on track" in the notes made me think that this was after a few track days, but idk where you got this so I guess you know the context. To me it kinda looks like something weird is going on with the sample because the flashpoint is significantly lower and the viscosity has decreased quite a bit, which makes me think there is a fuel dilution problem but they say it was just a trace. Always go drive your car and get it up to operating temperature (~20 minute drive or so) and then change the oil after it cools off enough so you don't get erroneous results.

I can also see that this is not a conclusive oil analysis report, because again, this an oil change from what appears to be the stock oil to 300V. When you swap from one oil to another, the new oil needs an additional cycle to replace the old oil film and additive package. The wear metals were slightly lower than yours despite that though at a similar mileage, but 2ppm is basically nothing when there are still elevated wear metals from break in.

300V is a racing oil and should actually be shearing quickly due to track use based on the way racing oils are typically formulated. They don't need to go 5 or 10k miles so they can use different things in the oil to help with wear protection but also shear quickly. Using a racing oil for street driving makes zero sense. You run a racing oil on the track because it will be formulated to be optimal at high temperature and high stress scenarios, not driving 5 minutes down the road to McDonalds to pick up a Big Mac. It's also very common to change oil after a track event so this usually isn't a problem.

 

[TARZAN]

"More toward 9.3 cst" meaning I want an oil that is closer to that. So yes 9 is closer to that lol. Tracking the car? I'm putting 5W-30 in it because at track temps it will be in the 0W-20 range in terms of viscosity with a higher HTHS and wear protection. Running 0W-20 at track temps is probably more like running a 0W-16 or lower in terms of viscosity.

The "plan to run it on track" in the notes made me think that this was after a few track days, but idk where you got this so I guess you know the context. To me it kinda looks like something weird is going on with the sample because the flashpoint is significantly lower and the viscosity has decreased quite a bit, which makes me think there is a fuel dilution problem but they say it was just a trace. Always go drive your car and get it up to operating temperature (~20 minute drive or so) and then change the oil after it cools off enough so you don't get erroneous results.

I can also see that this is not a conclusive oil analysis report, because again, this an oil change from what appears to be the stock oil to 300V. When you swap from one oil to another, the new oil needs an additional cycle to replace the old oil film and additive package. The wear metals were slightly lower than yours despite that though at a similar mileage, but 2ppm is basically nothing when there are still elevated wear metals from break in.

300V is a racing oil and should actually be shearing quickly due to track use based on the way racing oils are typically formulated. They don't need to go 5 or 10k miles so they can use different things in the oil to help with wear protection but also shear quickly. It's also very common to change oil after a track event so this usually isn't a problem.

That analysis is from my samples, OP contacted me via Facebook. Car has not been tracked yet as I got it towards the end of the season in my area. Not the first car I've tracked, so looking forward to pushing it at HPDE hopefully starting in March, targeting ~10 days of driving this year. Will get another sample at the next change probably with a track day or two to compare results. I don't think it's something worth obsessing over, especially if you change the oil more often with track use.

Regarding sample technique, I got the car up to temp and it sat for an hour before draining the oil, and took the sample towards the middle of drain. My usual commutes have been ~10 miles but I do get everything up to temp, I'd say about 65/35% city/highway.

The 300V isn't costing me much with FCPEuro lifetime replacements so I see no reason not to use it since I change it myself. They don't carry 8100 Power in 5W-30 or 0W-20, or I would've gone with that since it's a dual duty car. I went with the 5W-30 300V, as the European owner's manual permits the use of 5W-30, and I also would like the additional protection at higher temperatures during track use.

I used 8100 X-cess gen 2 5W-40 by recommendation of my tuner in my previous car, a MK7 GTI, and followed a 2 track days or 5K miles interval. With the FL5, I will be doing 2 track days or 3K miles (as per Motul's mileage recommendation).

I'm only really getting the samples out of pure curiosity, after also having watched The Motor Oil Geek. I'm not looking to find the "best" oil or extend the change intervals. I will do one more at the next change which will likely be after 2 track days sometime in March-April, and just do it once a year with continued track use going forward.

 

[TARZAN]

Here's both samples I have taken with comments for those interested in analyzing them:

 

[Ktrw]

That analysis is from my samples, OP contacted me via Facebook. Car has not been tracked yet as I got it towards the end of the season in my area. Not the first car I've tracked, so looking forward to pushing it at HPDE hopefully starting in March, targeting ~10 days of driving this year. Will get another sample at the next change probably with a track day or two to compare results. I don't think it's something worth obsessing over, especially if you change the oil more often with track use.

Regarding sample technique, I got the car up to temp and it sat for an hour before draining the oil, and took the sample towards the middle of drain. My usual commutes have been ~10 miles but I do get everything up to temp, I'd say about 65/35% city/highway.

The 300V isn't costing me much with FCPEuro lifetime replacements so I see no reason not to use it since I change it myself. They don't carry 8100 Power in 5W-30 or 0W-20, or I would've gone with that since it's a dual duty car. I went with the 5W-30 300V, as the European owner's manual permits the use of 5W-30, and I also would like the additional protection at higher temperatures during track use.

I used 8100 X-cess gen 2 5W-40 by recommendation of my tuner in my previous car, a MK7 GTI, and followed a 2 track days or 5K miles interval. With the FL5, I will be doing 2 track days or 3K miles (as per Motul's mileage recommendation).

I'm only really getting the samples out of pure curiosity, after also having watched The Motor Oil Geek. I'm not looking to find the "best" oil or extend the change intervals. I will do one more at the next change which will likely be after 2 track days sometime in March-April, and just do it once a year with continued track use going forward.

Sounds like you did a textbook change to me then, maybe the residual oil and 300V mixing did something weird or perhaps it's normal due to mechanical shearing, etc. You also have a solid plan IMO. I'm not really looking to find the "perfect" OCI or oil either tbh, but I do find the process/analysis to be interesting.

Your use case of 300V makes sense to me, I more so meant if you're only doing normal commute/street driving it wouldn't make much sense from a cost perspective and likely not optimal due to shearing, but you throw some track days in there and it makes a lot of sense. I would also be running either 300V, Driven DI, or HPL if I were tracking my car for the high temp protection as you said.

I appreciate you and @johnloov sharing your UOAs as well. I really need to send my samples out. Busy excuse ?

 

[Rhorn]

I see shade being thrown at Motul. But what about Amsoil?

 

[Ktrw]

Here is a pretty good explanation from AI - which seems to be validated from some of the initial lap results.


why do race oils like Motul 300v break down in viscosity so much faster than and API SP engine oil?

ChatGPT said:

Race oils like Motul 300V often break down in viscosity faster than API SP engine oils because of the fundamental differences in their formulation and intended use. Here's a detailed explanation:
1. Purpose and Design

• Race Oils (e.g., Motul 300V):
  • Designed for extreme performance under high loads, high RPMs, and extreme temperatures found in racing environments.
  • Prioritize maximum lubrication performance, reduced friction, and resistance to thermal breakdown during short intervals.
  • Use ester-based synthetic base oils with high polarity, which provide superior film strength and thermal stability but can shear down more quickly.
  • Typically, they sacrifice long-term durability and stability for peak performance.
• API SP Oils:
  • Engineered for long-term use in consumer vehicles, with strict standards for fuel economy, wear protection, emissions, and compatibility with catalytic converters.
  • Formulated with additives and base oils that emphasize shear stability, deposit control, and oil life over a broader range of operating conditions.

2. Additive Package

• Race Oils:
  • Use minimal viscosity index improvers (VIIs) because they aim for a stable viscosity in extreme conditions.
  • VIIs, while helpful for resisting viscosity breakdown in street oils, can break down under very high temperatures. Race oils avoid heavy reliance on these but are more susceptible to shear from extreme stress (e.g., high RPM and engine forces).
  • Higher concentrations of anti-wear additives (like ZDDP) and esters make them excellent at preventing wear, but this can accelerate oil degradation.
• API SP Oils:
  • Heavily formulated with detergents, dispersants, and VIIs, which help maintain viscosity and oil integrity over longer durations and more moderate conditions.
  • Lower levels of high-temperature anti-wear additives and esters mean they focus on preserving viscosity for the long haul.

3. High Shear and Mechanical Stress

• Racing conditions put oils under significantly higher shear stress compared to normal driving. This mechanical shearing breaks down the molecular structure of the oil, causing a drop in viscosity.
• Race oils like Motul 300V are formulated to handle this temporarily but not over extended periods, so viscosity loss is expected.
• API SP oils include polymers and VIIs to resist shear, which helps them maintain viscosity better under moderate stress but at the expense of peak performance.

4. Volatility and Base Oils

• Motul 300V uses Group V esters, which have excellent thermal stability and lubricity but tend to evaporate more readily under extreme temperatures, contributing to viscosity loss.
• API SP oils often blend Group III+ synthetic base stocks, which are less volatile and maintain viscosity better in long-term, high-heat applications.

5. Oxidation Resistance

• API SP oils have strong oxidation inhibitors to prevent viscosity breakdown over time, especially with modern low-SAPS (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus, and Sulfur) additive packages.
• Race oils, while resistant to short-term thermal breakdown, are not as optimized for long-term oxidation resistance, as they're not designed to sit in the engine for thousands of miles.

Why Does This Matter?
The differences in performance come down to their intended applications. Motul 300V prioritizes the performance edge for short bursts, while API SP oils are focused on durability and protecting the engine over extended periods.
If you’re racing and changing oil frequently, the higher degradation rate of race oils is a trade-off for their performance. However, for long-term use or daily driving, sticking with a robust API SP oil would provide better viscosity stability over time.

4o

You said:
How much viscosity will a race oil like Motul 300v loose in CST in 3500 miles vs an API SP engine oil relatively

ChatGPT said:

The amount of viscosity loss in a race oil like Motul 300V compared to an API SP engine oil over 3,500 miles can be significant, primarily due to the differences in their formulations and intended applications.
Here’s an estimate based on typical performance:
1. Viscosity Loss in Race Oils (Motul 300V)

• Motul 300Vis designed for short-term, high-performance applications. In extended use (like 3,500 miles of normal driving):
  • Expected viscosity loss: 15-30% in high-shear conditions, depending on engine stress and oil temperature.
  • Example for 30-weight oil:
    • Initial kinematic viscosity at 100°C: ~11.5 cSt.
    • After 3,500 miles: could drop to ~8.5-10 cSt due to shearing, oxidation, and ester evaporation under prolonged high temperatures.

Race oils lack high levels of viscosity index improvers (VIIs) and are prone to quicker molecular shearing, leading to faster viscosity degradation.
2. Viscosity Loss in API SP Oils

• API SP-certified oils are formulated with shear-stable polymers and additivesto maintain viscosity over longer periods.
  • Expected viscosity loss: 5-10% over 3,500 miles in typical operating conditions.
  • Example for 30-weight oil:
    • Initial kinematic viscosity at 100°C: ~10.5 cSt.
    • After 3,500 miles: could drop to ~9.5-10 cSt, depending on the severity of use.

The VIIs in API SP oils allow them to retain more of their original viscosity in normal and even moderately severe conditions. However, in extreme track conditions, they might degrade faster.
3. Relative Difference Over 3,500 Miles

• Motul 300V: Likely to lose ~2-3 cSt or ~15-30% of its viscosity at 100°C.
• API SP Oil: Likely to lose ~0.5-1.0 cSt or ~5-10% of its viscosity at 100°C.

Key Factors Influencing Viscosity Loss:

1. Operating Temperature:
   • High oil temperatures (>120°C) exacerbate shear in both oil types, but Motul 300V is less resistant to prolonged high temps due to its racing-oriented ester base oils.
2. Driving Conditions:
   • High RPMs, frequent high loads, and racing-like conditions increase viscosity loss, impacting Motul 300Vmore than a street-oriented API SP oil.
3. Oil Additive Package:
   • API SP oils contain more detergents and dispersants for long-term oxidation resistance, while Motul 300V prioritizes short-term anti-wear and friction-reduction performance.

Conclusion:
If you’re running Motul 300V in non-racing conditions for 3,500 miles, you should expect significant viscosity loss (15-30%) compared to an API SP oil (5-10%). This makes Motul 300V less suitable for extended intervals unless you’re frequently refreshing the oil for racing. On the other hand, API SP oils are better suited for longevity and more stable viscosity over time.

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I also confirmed this with the top performance shop here that runs tons of exotic races cars, Ferrari's GT3 RS' GT4 RS etc. Before Laguna Seca or Sonoma - They use Motul 300V 10w-60, and then drain it immediately after the track day, and put in street API SP engine oil. They don't run any of their cars on 300V for thousands of miles he told me.

Again. I'm completely open to seeing data that proves this wrong.

Note how they're using a 10W-60 race oil on the track in a car that calls for 0W-40 from the manufacturer. I don't think anyone is going to try to prove this wrong because that AI result is consistent with and pulls its information from what is conventional knowledge at this point.

 

[Ktrw]

Seems like they use even 20-60 on lambos temporarily for track.

The main question I have is, people running Motul 300V 5w-30 on the Type R... and I know many I've met on track at Laguna Seca.. That run it for 3500 miles including heavy track days... That have never done an oil analysis... And I have a friend who is an expert driver running the FL5, super fast track times, and runs Motul Power 8100 5w-30 API SP, and changes does 4-5 track days 3500 miles. He's also never done engine oil analysis.

So are the Motul 300V guys running it for 3500 miles - Are they doing more damage than good running it ? Or are people blindly trusting a Brand Name, thinking I need to run race oil, not knowing that it only gives good protection for under 300-500 miles and one or two trackways? I'm Super curious.

What's the data prove. How many miles can a Motul 300V protect vs an API SP engine oil?

Maintaining sufficient oil viscosity is the most important aspect of an engine oil.

-> Run 300V 5W-30 (11 cst), it shears down from 11.1 to ~9 cst
-> Honda says you can run 0W-20 (6.9-9.3 cst) or 5W-30 (9.3-12.5)
-> Sheared down 9 cst 300V is still at the high end of the 20 grade
-> You are good in terms of viscosity because you started from a 5W-30
-> You can run a race oil or API SP oil but one is good for the track and one is good for street use. Technically both can be used for the other application and be alright but not optimal.
-> Do oil analysis if you care to see if your +$7k engine is doing okay
-> Don't really need to care what other people are doing if they don't care, it's up to them.

 

[Vito.FL5]

Very heavy oils caused weird behaviors on my car. Probably due to the oil pump design.

With that said, I now run 5w40 with no issues

edit: Just to add a litle more information:

WIth heavier oils like 300v 5w50 the oil pump struggled to build full pressure on cold starts. That is a very weird behavior that I have never seen on any other engine. My theory is that the oil pump inlet could be designed for a very light oil like the OEM 0w20 and a heavy oil could cause cavitation but I´m not sure.

I am now running motul 8100 x-cess 5w40 with no issues. I do an oil change after every track day

 

[Ktrw]

Very heavy oils caused weird behaviors on my car. Probably due to the oil pump design.

With that said, I now run 5w40 with no issues

edit: Just to add a litle more information:

WIth heavier oils like 300v 5w50 the oil pump struggled to build full pressure on cold starts. That is a very weird behavior that I have never seen on any other engine. My theory is that the oil pump inlet could be designed for a very light oil like the OEM 0w20 and a heavy oil could cause cavitation but I´m not sure.

I am now running motul 8100 x-cess 5w40 with no issues. I do an oil change after every track day

I mean yeah 5w-50 is an insane viscosity difference you might be putting the oil pump into bypass in and out or something lmao. It is going to be difficult for an engine designed for 0W-20/5W-30 to cold start a 50-grade oil since the oil passages and pump were designed for a much lower resistance fluid.

You wild ? what made you choose 5w-40 though, anything specific?

 

[Vito.FL5]

You wild ? what made you choose 5w-40 though, anything specific?

I live in a very hot climate, my car has a lot of power and I track the car a lot.

0w20 is some emissions bullshit. Most cars on 0wXX are having many lubrication problems. Bmws are scratching head journals, even type R´s have a bad rep on the nurburgring because not only they overheat but they ha dmany engine failures due to people trusting oem oil to beat the crap out of the car.

 

[Rhorn]

When are you supposed to change your oil after a track day?

I had anout 4,000 miles on my oil (street miles) before I did an oil change before track day

 

[Vito.FL5]

The one thing I can tell you for sure about oil is that a new cheap oil is better then a worn out expensive oil.

For this reason I change after every track day or 2000 miles of street use.

My car has 6000 miles and about 10 oil changes lol

 

[Vito.FL5]

Totally agreed, that's what the data shows.

Curious what oil are you using?

either 8100 x-cess or 300v, both on 5w40. And acdelco syncromesh on the transmission.

Unfortunately there aren't many good options in my country and even the trans oil has to -allegedly- be smuggled trough the border lol.

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