Racing the FL5 Type R with all OEM spec parts on Laguna Seca

[johnloov]

Keep claiming "data, data, data" but using LogR for lap times and claiming pro-driver pace.

FK8 and FL5 is also not same car. You also rarely see pro's drive stock cars, so the evidence you are looking for, doesn't really exist.

As long as you are having fun.

@J1Avs So find a lap time on the stock Type R FL5 on Laguna Seca......

And put it here.

or shut the F up

Add Value - not noise

For example you could say - here is the evidence on how they ran a 1.44 on a stock FL5, Type R, with this exact tire pressure, how repeatable it was, what alignment etc.

Sponsored

 

[johnloov]

@J1Avs So find a lap time on the stock Type R FL5 on Laguna Seca......

And put it here.

or shut the F up

Add Value - not noise

For example you could say - here is the evidence on how they ran a 1.44 on a stock FL5, Type R, with this exact tire pressure, how repeatable it was, what alignment etc.

Here is a "Pro Driver" Mason Filippi that set the production track record with an automatic Elantra N - Fresh set of tires - perfect lines - millisecond shifts.

I will be impressed if anyone can get below a 1.44-1.45 on a Stock FL5 Type R.... Best I could do today was 1.47s ( not a pro ) and was on my way again to a 1.45-1.46 but spun it... My P4Ss are probably shot. I am running 35psi cold front and 32psi rear - which gets to 39psi or so hot, which I know is slower, but then you really compromise with rolling over the tire when you go lower. The nitrogen really does help stability of the 4s on consistent laps vs air.

I think a 1.44-1.45 is approaching the limit of the stock FL5, stock pads, stock tires, stock everything but Castrol SRF Fluid. The car did perform better exit speeds and better braking as I moved the Toe out to 2mm vs 5mm.

Personally I prefer pedal dance - - the one lap I tried AHA - when I lifted off throttle it did oversteer too much and spun me out as it applies the rear brake.

2024 Hyundai Elantra N around Laguna Seca FWD production Record 1.44.1



At the age of 25, Mason Filippi stands as a professional racecar driver proudly representing Bryan Herta Autosport in the Michelin Pilot Challenge. His journey into the world of professional racing began with a fervent love for dirt bikes, followed by a transition to kart racing at the remarkably young age of 11. By the time he reached 14, Mason had found his way into the competitive world of Spec Miata racing. It's worth noting that during his time in Spec Miata, Mason worked closely with his father, gaining valuable hands-on experience in car mechanics while simultaneously honing his racing prowess.


As the years passed, Mason's racing career climbed the ranks of touring car racing, ultimately leading him to the prestigious position of a factory driver for Hyundai in IMSA. Competing in renowned events such as IMSA, the Nurburgring 24 Hour, and the 24 Hours of Daytona, Mason not only broadened his racing repertoire but also achieved remarkable results. In the year 2023 alone, he accomplished an impressive feat by securing 12 podium finishes, including 2 victories, and earning 3 top 5 finishes. This outstanding track record showcased an astounding 85% Top 5 result rate across all races.

 

[MooMoo]

another oil test with different outcome. Maybe was not on this thead but I remember something getting posted by you about pre filling filter and linking a youtube video so this is interesting that tests showed pre filling does not matter.

 

[johnloov]

another oil test with different outcome. Maybe was not on this thead but I remember something getting posted by you about pre filling filter and linking a youtube video so this is interesting that tests showed pre filling does not matter.

Thanks for the information and video.

According to LakeSpeed Junior - this oil pro - in his tests, it did make a difference - but after looking into it, it depends on the engine. I believe I read, the larger the oil filer, the more of a problem it can cause, but with the Honda Civic having such a small oil filter, it probably fills up very fast on startup. I still request my dealership to pre-fill the oil filter, so I can get consistent data. You maybe right, but there is zero downside to pre-filling.

Currently my dealership is amazing, they have been giving me 4 free oil changes of Honda Ultimate 0w-20, and I'm changing it every 2-3 track days, ~1000 miles. So far the data is looking excellent. Blackstone hasn't seen the oil sheer at all.

The Type R is stock form is killing it. I've only upgraded fluid to Catrol SRF brake fluid, which is bullet proof, and upgraded to Paragon R5 front and R3 rears. Front pins have been removed for a bit more negative camber, and even though I sacrifice maybe 1-2 seconds on lap times, I've been running 34 PSI cold 32 rear, as the Pilot 4s can come off the tire, and I'd rather not take those risks. Filling the tires with Nitrogen did help! Stabilize ~2psi but it feels like more. I had to cycle each tire 10 times, flatten the tire, and refill it 10 times each to get as much Nitrogen % as possible.

I'm running +2MM toe out - in front and stock +2mm in - in rear

I'm not experiencing any overheating issues and I run it very hard.

I was able to get my dealership to also negotiate almost half off with Michelin warranty to upgrade to the OE Cup 2s'.

Excited to see how many seconds this drops.

Mind blow with the cars that the Type R can take out on the track, even with my okay driving skill. I'm doing about a 1.46m now, and hope to get that down to a 1.44 but in a reliable and consistent way.

 

[MooMoo]

This guy actually talks about big filters vs small and he says its the exact same thing because big filter will have bigger engine so it will fill it the same exact speed, oil pressure will build up the same speed. Basically in his findings it is exactly the same. The only time the engine gets damaged is while its warming up which is not something we can prevent, the less the cold starts the longer the engine will last.

Of course everyone has different findings and he mentions the other guy you had posted, he found different thing and he is totally fine with it. I think we might not really know whats good or bad. OEMs don't want people to do it most likely because while you are doing that you might contaminate the oil. I think we can continue to do it whatever way we want to and its probably fine.


Glad you are really enjoying the car and using it as it was designed!

 

[johnloov]

Racing the Stock FL5 Type R on Laguna Seca. Update:

Here are the must do's:
1) Upgrade the brake fluid to Castrol SRF - This is a must - thanks @savagegeese -seems other brake fluids are all failing - not SRF
2) Keep 35 psi cold nitrogen filled in stock ps4's front and 32 psi cold rear ( nitrogen fill the tires - you'll need to cycle it - deflate inflate at least 6 times to get the max benefit highest nitrogen ratio) If you go below 32-35psi cold, your tires are folding over. I used a marker on all the side walls, and tried every configuration.
3) Remove the camber pins, -1.8 degree camber and toe out 1-2MM in the front( I'm at 2mm out total). I believe stock rear is 2mm toe in - Turn in is perfect. If you don't have stock rims and tires, and are at -4 negative, don't toe out, it will eat the inside of your tires. My friends tried this on their 18 inch rims with extreme suspension setups. But if you're stock, like me, it helps, and wears evenly. I've changed the toe in front by hand many many times, until I got this setting.
4) Keep Reduced traction on (best) I prefer light press now, traction control, it's not worth spinning out, which I've done several times now, or crashing which many have accomplished. I was wrong about Pedal dance and AHA, and I recently started getting my fastest times with traction control reduced. It also saves tires. I was burning up tires coming out of the straights. Just destroying the tires, increasing heat fast, no good.
5) Honda OEM oil is working well every 2 track days, or 1000 miles - lab results attached. My dealership is giving me free Honda Ultimate 0w-20 Oil Changes.
6) Brake pads I was very stubborn to use the stock pads, but every time they just evaporated, melted in 1 track day. I upgraded to Paragon R5 w/titantium shims + R3 rear. Day and night difference.

Currently I just broke into the 1.45's, had one dry session and traffic free - and for sure there is another second in gain on stock tires.

While I'm not maybe a pro driver, the FL5 is an absolute track weapon in stock form

On Dry:

In Rain :


Very good wear with 2mm toe out in front. -1.8 negative camber.

What's next: Upgrading to OE spec CUP's after Laguna Seca track days, Feb 22. Should be good for another 1-2 seconds. More Honda Ultimate Engine oil analysis. I've always run more than half a tank of fuel, on laps, have never overheated the car, and have seen as high as 278F oil temps in summer, and recently in winter it's not going past 258F. My understanding the real oil temps are more like 20 degrees lower than predicted on screen. Turning the heater on does help 3-5 degrees, but you better run the recirculate, or all that brake dust comes in and you'll need to change your A/C air filter after every race. I'm very curious about Jason's cooling under tray for the FL5. If that works well, that could be one mod to ensure enough air is traveling through stock radiator.

If we are getting into 1.42's with a stock FL5 stock OE tires, that's a success

The FL5 Type R is truly an amazing out of the box track weapon with these small changes.

I love now leaving the home, with a car dialed in, pressures set, fully sound proofed ~15db improvement, road noise murdered, crystal clear stereo, super comfortable, no bouncy issues, come to the track, not have to take anything out of trunk, etc. drive up and absolutely kill it in R mode, and drive home not having to fck around with anything.

You can check out the sound deadening project here - Car now feels like a vault and murders on the track.

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/sound-deadening-project.54327/page-8

 

[J1Avs]

Racing the Stock FL5 Type R on Laguna Seca. Update:

Here are the must do's:
1) Upgrade the brake fluid to Castrol SRF - This is a must - thanks @savagegeese -seems other brake fluids are all failing - not SRF
2) Keep 35 psi cold nitrogen filled in stock ps4's front and 32 psi cold ( nitrogen fill the tires - you'll need to cycle it - deflate inflate at least 6 times to get the max benefit highest nitrogen ratio) If you go below 32-35psi cold, your tires are folding over. I used a marker on all the side walls, and tried every configuration.
3) Remove the camber pins, -1.8 degree camber and toe out 1-2MM in the front( I'm at 2mm out total). I believe stock rear is 2mm toe in - Turn in is perfect. If you don't have stock rims and tires, and are at -4 negative, don't toe out, it will eat the inside of your tires. My friends tried this on their 18 inch rims with extreme suspension setups. But if you're stock, like me, it helps, and wears evenly. I've changed the toe in front by hand many many times, until I got this setting.
4) Keep Reduced traction on (best) I prefer light press now, traction control, it's not worth spinning out, which I've done several times now, or crashing which many have accomplished. I was wrong about Pedal dance and AHA, and I recently started getting my fastest times with traction control reduced. It also saves tires. I was burning up tires coming out of the straights. Just destroying the tires, increasing heat fast, no good.
5) Honda OEM oil is working well every 2 track days, or 1000 miles - lab results attached. My dealership is giving me free Honda Ultimate 0w-20 Oil Changes.
6) Brake pads I was very stubborn to use the stock pads, but every time they just evaporated, melted in 1 track day. I upgraded to Paragon R5 w/titantium shims + R3 rear. Day and night difference.

Currently I just broke into the 1.45's, had one dry session and traffic free - and for sure there is another second in gain on stock tires.

While I'm not maybe a pro driver, the FL5 is an absolute track weapon in stock form

On Dry:

In Rain :


Very good wear with 2mm toe out in front. -1.8 negative camber.

What's next: Upgrading to OE spec CUP's after Laguna Seca track days, Feb 22. Should be good for another 1-2 seconds. More Honda Ultimate Engine oil analysis. I've always run more than half a tank of fuel, on laps, have never overheated the car, and have seen as high as 278F oil temps in summer, and recently in winter it's not going past 258F. My understanding the real oil temps are more like 20 degrees lower than predicted on screen. Turning the heater on does help 3-5 degrees, but you better run the recirculate, or all that brake dust comes in and you'll need to change your A/C air filter after every race. I've very curious about Jason's cooling under tray for the FL5. If that works well, that could be one mod to ensure enough air is traveling through stock radiator.

If we are getting into 1.42's with a stock FL5 stock OE tires, that's a success

The FL5 Type R is truly an amazing out of the box track weapon with these small changes.

1) Concur on SRF -- Endless RF-650 is another great option (but more expensive, but I always steer clear of the rest (aka the ones that all come in the same bottle with a different label).
2) Reduced Track (Short Press) is pretty invasive if you like rotation. If you don't that's totally okay and you should be driving where you feel comfortable and are the fastest, but it certainly interferes if you like over steer.
3) R5/R3 will work, but you'll go through them rapidly -- when you are ready for another upgrade, you should check out the CSG C1X's -- I've posted a plethora of data on them combined with Girodiscs
4) I commend you on trying the OE spec Cup2's -- they are an expensive experiment. I did the same thing when I got the car. Basic alignment and the Cup2's, and while I've wanted to get another set for science, I can't justify it. Wear is rapid and their grip window is really short, and pretty mediocre at that. I recommend doing a hot lap, and then a cool down or two before sending it on a second hot lap -- even in cooler temps. The wear really acclerates when they get hot, and they don't do well if you push them when understeering.

 

[MooMoo]

Isn't short press basically only less invasive if under a certain speed? (I believe 30mph) and then its basically full TC after?

Maybe I understand this chart wrong.

Also agree on skipping the cup2's, they are too expensive, you can get way better tires for that money

 

[johnloov]

I'm not sure, but I'm running my fastest times with short press on, and it doesn't feel anywhere as intrusive as with just TypeR Mode, and I'm very fast on dry and wet, and I feel it really come on right before a spin. It saved me on a fast downhill after the corkscrew. My tires touched the outside of the track.

Also @pointsbypatrol ran his fastest time with all nannies accidentally ON.

We need to stop demonizing the traction control Nanny. She's a fun one.

I was thinking nannies are a bad thing, but the Type R traction settings are a Nanny that lets you have a lot of fun and come home alive.

It beats going into the wall, which I'm sure I would be there also without light press.

 

[MooMoo]

you won't get demonizing of TC from me, I keep everything on. Just +R and send it. It definitely is intrusive though, you can feel it.

I just ask because I want to know.

 

[J1Avs]

I don't think anyone should demonize driving in any setting. Drive where you are comfortable and works for you. No one wins from someone driving in a setting where they aren't comfortable. It's good you are experimenting with that works best for you and your driving -- that's what it is all about.

I like the car in Long Hold in +R. It works for my driving. Some people say it's cheating, because I don't pedal dance -- but the car doesn't behave how I like it in that mode, so I don't use it!

 

[MooMoo]

I don't think anyone should demonize driving in any setting. Drive where you are comfortable and works for you. No one wins from someone driving in a setting where they aren't comfortable. It's good you are experimenting with that works best for you and your driving -- that's what it is all about.

I like the car in Long Hold in +R. It works for my driving. Some people say it's cheating, because I don't pedal dance -- but the car doesn't behave how I like it in that mode, so I don't use it!

lol people are weird.
The mode you use is avail for everyone to use so they are welcome to use it and beat your times

 

[johnloov]

you won't get demonizing of TC from me, I keep everything on. Just +R and send it. It definitely is intrusive though, you can feel it.

I just ask because I want to know.

Try short press, for sure I feel my brakes are not working as hard as full on

 

[MooMoo]

Try short press, for sure I feel my brakes are not working as hard as full on

I will try it for sure. I will actually be at autocross before track and will try short press, at autocross I also do full press but will try it as well.

 

[johnloov]

1) Concur on SRF -- Endless RF-650 is another great option (but more expensive, but I always steer clear of the rest (aka the ones that all come in the same bottle with a different label).
2) Reduced Track (Short Press) is pretty invasive if you like rotation. If you don't that's totally okay and you should be driving where you feel comfortable and are the fastest, but it certainly interferes if you like over steer.
3) R5/R3 will work, but you'll go through them rapidly -- when you are ready for another upgrade, you should check out the CSG C1X's -- I've posted a plethora of data on them combined with Girodiscs
4) I commend you on trying the OE spec Cup2's -- they are an expensive experiment. I did the same thing when I got the car. Basic alignment and the Cup2's, and while I've wanted to get another set for science, I can't justify it. Wear is rapid and their grip window is really short, and pretty mediocre at that. I recommend doing a hot lap, and then a cool down or two before sending it on a second hot lap -- even in cooler temps. The wear really acclerates when they get hot, and they don't do well if you push them when understeering.

Thanks @J1Avs - will have to look into those brake pads - I was thinking of taking advantage of the FCP Euro infinite return brake pads and replace move - it seems they have front brake pads that fit the FL5 Type R - same as Volvo -

what's your view on the Brake Hawk DT-60's compared to the Paragon R5 or CSG C1X's ?

Volvo Disc Brake Pad Set - Hawk 32373169
S60R, V70R
DT-60 Track Compound, see description

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