Question about lowering springs with stock dampers

[GIChoe]

I just purchased a set of Spoon lowering springs (20mm drop), and had some questions. No other suspension mods, stock wheels and tires, and the car is solely for daily driving with occasional canyon carving.

1. I know it’ll negatively affect my stock shocks, how much of a problem will this be?
2. I don’t want to go full coil overs, but will I need any other mods to compensate for the lowered ride height?
3. I’ll need an alignment done as well correct? Anything else I should expect?

Thanks for the help!

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[chopsuey34]

Bumping this thread because I'm planning on spoon springs too, but:

1) With high-quality spoon springs and less aggressive drop, I don't think reliability and service life would be impacted much, but would like other's input on this
2) 20mm is a minor drop, and I don't think any camber kits are necessary but would like others' opinions
3) Yes, an alignment always after any kind of suspension work.

 

[blazindominican]

1. Simply put, your reducing the travel of the struts. Not a big problem but does affect "efficiency" technically. Not enough to worry though. Companies R&D take this into consideration when designing their product.

2. I haven't had to suggest any other parts to any customers. Unless u go with extreme wheel spec you won't need camber kits or anything.

3. Yes, alignment is suggested. I have done a few spring installs and seen good tire wear but for the cost of an alignment why risk it. Save those tires, maintain good steering behavior and handling characteristics by doing your alignment.

Hope this helps.

 

[GIChoe]

Got the springs installed with an alignment! Thanks for the reassurance, can’t wait to see what she looks like after they fully settle.

 

[AZCWTypeR]

An alignment will be needed.

We lowered a Corolla years ago by 20mm. Front toe went way off, like over 3/4" vs. 1 mm spec. Fortunately I made a wooden caliper ahead of time and could correct before driving. Otherwise tire wear would have been excessive just getting to an alignment shop.

 

[PippyLongstockings]

I’m very curious about this too

 

[nawfoo]

It's not that serious of a drop. Just drive slow going up curbs and dips. Get some 5 to 10 mm spacers.

 

[optronix]

It's kind of ironic that I keep stumbling across this topic; 3rd time this week on this forum!

Anyway, I got the Eibach Pro-kit installed last summer on my Integra type S. Everything else stock, and yes I did have an alignment done. My early impressions were great; car looked fantastic especially with the Apex wheels I'd put on in May, the ride wasn't compromised and actually felt a bit nicer with the lower center of gravity and higher spring rate.

However, my experience at the next autocross I went to was not so great. I guess I have to concede I'm an "avid autocrosser" at this point, as this was my 7th event of this season and ~10th event in this car, so I'm pretty familiar with how the car performs stock. I do occasionally fight with understeer in certain conditions, mostly because of the ham-fisted way I drive, but after the springs it was way worse. It was bad enough to actually make me not want to go to another event until I get the issue corrected.

What specifically I'm talking about is the fact that these cars have MacPherson struts front suspension and multi-link rear, so when you lower the car only the rear suspension will have a fair amount of additional negative camber. Scientifically, this will induce understeer. In practice, it's annoying as all hell at or near the car's limits.

To correct this, I plan on having adjustable lower ball joints installed in the spring. My target is ~2.5 degrees of camber in front and rear. That should get me where I want to be and I expect actually a noticeable improvement over stock- but right now it's worse. I'd never have noticed if I didn't use the car for motorsports type stuff, so this may not matter to many people but it definitely does to me.

It's also worth noting that pulling the strut alignment pins and sliding the struts "in" as far as they'll go has been reported to net as much as .3-.4 degrees of extra camber. I feel like that amount would make a significant difference but the shop that did my install refused to do this for whatever reason...

Also keep in mind that this phenomenon would occur with coilovers too, unless they specifically come with camber adjustment plates; the Ohlins R&T that I've had my eyes on do not but I may consider going this route when the time comes to pull the trigger. My thoughts originally were that I wanted to keep the adjustable dampers from the factory, but after doing a bit more research I think an aftermarket coilover would have a higher grade damper anyway, and feedback on most coilover setups for this platform is that the ride is not totally compromised on the street. So really it's just a matter of cost for me at this point.

Hope that info helps somebody.

 

[GIChoe]

Finally got over my cold and took her for a late night drive. I gotta say, I am loving these springs. Spoon described these springs as providing better handling while also making the ride more supple, and they delivered. The car feels so planted, and even on some hard corners, I didn't feel any increased amount of understeer. I'll also be taking it to the twisties this weekend if the weather holds up.

 

[GIChoe]

It's kind of ironic that I keep stumbling across this topic; 3rd time this week on this forum!

Anyway, I got the Eibach Pro-kit installed last summer on my Integra type S. Everything else stock, and yes I did have an alignment done. My early impressions were great; car looked fantastic especially with the Apex wheels I'd put on in May, the ride wasn't compromised and actually felt a bit nicer with the lower center of gravity and higher spring rate.

However, my experience at the next autocross I went to was not so great. I guess I have to concede I'm an "avid autocrosser" at this point, as this was my 7th event of this season and ~10th event in this car, so I'm pretty familiar with how the car performs stock. I do occasionally fight with understeer in certain conditions, mostly because of the ham-fisted way I drive, but after the springs it was way worse. It was bad enough to actually make me not want to go to another event until I get the issue corrected.

What specifically I'm talking about is the fact that these cars have MacPherson struts front suspension and multi-link rear, so when you lower the car only the rear suspension will have a fair amount of additional negative camber. Scientifically, this will induce understeer. In practice, it's annoying as all hell at or near the car's limits.

To correct this, I plan on having adjustable lower ball joints installed in the spring. My target is ~2.5 degrees of camber in front and rear. That should get me where I want to be and I expect actually a noticeable improvement over stock- but right now it's worse. I'd never have noticed if I didn't use the car for motorsports type stuff, so this may not matter to many people but it definitely does to me.

It's also worth noting that pulling the strut alignment pins and sliding the struts "in" as far as they'll go has been reported to net as much as .3-.4 degrees of extra camber. I feel like that amount would make a significant difference but the shop that did my install refused to do this for whatever reason...

Also keep in mind that this phenomenon would occur with coilovers too, unless they specifically come with camber adjustment plates; the Ohlins R&T that I've had my eyes on do not but I may consider going this route when the time comes to pull the trigger. My thoughts originally were that I wanted to keep the adjustable dampers from the factory, but after doing a bit more research I think an aftermarket coilover would have a higher grade damper anyway, and feedback on most coilover setups for this platform is that the ride is not totally compromised on the street. So really it's just a matter of cost for me at this point.

Hope that info helps somebody.

Unfortunately wasn't able to go to the twisties this weekend due to rain, but I was curious about your experiences with the understeer. I took a few hard corners that I drive near daily as they are on my work commute, and definitely noticed that I didn't feel nearly as confident as I did when stock. I'm going to try and get the shop to remove those strut alignment pins, but I'm worried that they'll induce wear on suspension components quicker. I feel like Honda's engineers put them there for a reason, and I don't necessarily want to mess with them.

 

[optronix]

Unfortunately wasn't able to go to the twisties this weekend due to rain, but I was curious about your experiences with the understeer. I took a few hard corners that I drive near daily as they are on my work commute, and definitely noticed that I didn't feel nearly as confident as I did when stock. I'm going to try and get the shop to remove those strut alignment pins, but I'm worried that they'll induce wear on suspension components quicker. I feel like Honda's engineers put them there for a reason, and I don't necessarily want to mess with them.

The shop that did my springs had similar feelings, as did I when I first heard about it. But apparently there are many testimonials on this forum and the Integra forums that attest to the fact that they are there pretty much solely to make installation a little bit easier, all it would affect is camber and would just grant about .2-.4 degrees which is virtually negligible for tire/suspension component wear, and are pretty trivial to remove (assuming the strut tower nuts are tightened appropriately of course- you do have to loosen the nuts, push the struts "in" and then tighten them to see a change in camber- mentioning this because I've seen at least one person on these forums suggest that literally just pulling the pins out adds camber, and that's not exactly how that works...).

But just as many things related to the Internet, you're probably not going to find much in the way of documented guidance from official Honda outlets. Here's a thread about it, should you choose to continue down this particular internet rat hole: https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/fl5-front-camber-strut-pin-removal.51857/

As for the understeer, I really only notice it during autocross. The car stock has a wonderful tendency to oversteer if not driven like a ham-fisted maniac- but the last time I was out after the springs were done it pushed WAY more than usual. It might have just been that day I was driving like an idiot, or that particular course- but I know my car pretty well by now and scientifically, it makes sense. I had an alignment done after the springs install and it's ~-2.5 degrees in the rear, ~-1.5 in the front. Stock they're about -1.5 all around.

But all that said, I don't really notice it on the street... but I'm not going anywhere near the limits on the street either.

 

[FL5CW]

Unfortunately wasn't able to go to the twisties this weekend due to rain, but I was curious about your experiences with the understeer. I took a few hard corners that I drive near daily as they are on my work commute, and definitely noticed that I didn't feel nearly as confident as I did when stock. I'm going to try and get the shop to remove those strut alignment pins, but I'm worried that they'll induce wear on suspension components quicker. I feel like Honda's engineers put them there for a reason, and I don't necessarily want to mess with them.

Let’s see a pic of the car!

 

[GIChoe]

Let’s see a pic of the car!

 

[Zero7]

It's kind of ironic that I keep stumbling across this topic; 3rd time this week on this forum!

Anyway, I got the Eibach Pro-kit installed last summer on my Integra type S. Everything else stock, and yes I did have an alignment done. My early impressions were great; car looked fantastic especially with the Apex wheels I'd put on in May, the ride wasn't compromised and actually felt a bit nicer with the lower center of gravity and higher spring rate.

However, my experience at the next autocross I went to was not so great. I guess I have to concede I'm an "avid autocrosser" at this point, as this was my 7th event of this season and ~10th event in this car, so I'm pretty familiar with how the car performs stock. I do occasionally fight with understeer in certain conditions, mostly because of the ham-fisted way I drive, but after the springs it was way worse. It was bad enough to actually make me not want to go to another event until I get the issue corrected.

What specifically I'm talking about is the fact that these cars have MacPherson struts front suspension and multi-link rear, so when you lower the car only the rear suspension will have a fair amount of additional negative camber. Scientifically, this will induce understeer. In practice, it's annoying as all hell at or near the car's limits.

To correct this, I plan on having adjustable lower ball joints installed in the spring. My target is ~2.5 degrees of camber in front and rear. That should get me where I want to be and I expect actually a noticeable improvement over stock- but right now it's worse. I'd never have noticed if I didn't use the car for motorsports type stuff, so this may not matter to many people but it definitely does to me.

It's also worth noting that pulling the strut alignment pins and sliding the struts "in" as far as they'll go has been reported to net as much as .3-.4 degrees of extra camber. I feel like that amount would make a significant difference but the shop that did my install refused to do this for whatever reason...

Also keep in mind that this phenomenon would occur with coilovers too, unless they specifically come with camber adjustment plates; the Ohlins R&T that I've had my eyes on do not but I may consider going this route when the time comes to pull the trigger. My thoughts originally were that I wanted to keep the adjustable dampers from the factory, but after doing a bit more research I think an aftermarket coilover would have a higher grade damper anyway, and feedback on most coilover setups for this platform is that the ride is not totally compromised on the street. So really it's just a matter of cost for me at this point.

Hope that info helps somebody.

Could the under steer be spring dependant, I’m running spoon springs on mine but never got a chance to take mine on track prior to the springs being fitted. Would be gold to hear view of others that have had spoon or other springs fitted to see if it induced under steer on theirs too. I’ve had a full alignment done since fitting the springs.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

I have tested Spoon springs on my own car and installed it on countless other FL5's and can confirm they are currently the best lowering solutions on this platform without going the full coilover route. They match the OEM dampers well, and maintain the factory handling balance, which is reasonably neutral between under and oversteer when you've sorted out the front camber (need more, a lot more). However when you get more serious with going fast, coilovers are 100% the better solution for greater adjustability in terms of damping, spring rates, alignments, corner weight, etc etc.

I have installed Eibach Pro Kit as well, but I personally think they're too soft for track work. On a primarily street driven car they're more comfortable than the Spoon's (expected given the softer rate).

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